Speaker 1: 0:00

Welcome to Tried and True with the Dash of Woo, where we blend rock solid tips with a little bit of magic. I'm Renee Bowen, your host, life and business coach and professional photographer at your service. We are all about getting creative, diving into your business and playing with manifestation over here. So are you ready to get inspired and have some fun? Let's dive in. Hey friends, welcome back to Tried and True with a Dash of Woo. I'm your host, renee Bowen. Thank you again for being here Today.

Speaker 1: 0:31

I have a fellow photographer and educator on the podcast. She's awesome. You're going to love her. If you don't know her already, jill Smith is a seasoned family photographer and business strategist with over 11 years of experience in the photography industry, and she built a highly profitable and sustainable business we love that by blending strategic pricing, streamlined marketing and an exceptional client experience. So now she also mentors other photographers looking to scale their businesses, and we talked today all about pricing and burnout and creativity and mini sessions and how to make them profitable. We kind of dance around this pricing thing a lot, but there's a lot of psychology that goes into that and I feel like a lot of you guys who listen are kind of in that place where you're not necessarily super low priced but you're not luxury priced and you're not sure if you should be, and there's maybe a lot of noise. We also talk about neurodiversity and how that comes into play with all of this and how to navigate all of that. It's a good one. So you guys are in for a treat and I know you're going to love Jill, if you don't know her already. So we're just going to dive right in. Hey, jill, thanks so much for being here.

Speaker 1: 1:41

I have a lot of questions about pricing because I mean, as you know, like we both, we both talk about this a lot. We both talk about the importance of it and also the issues that a lot of photographers have when it comes to pricing. So I'm really curious because you're on the East coast, I'm way over here on the West coast I want to kind of just like dive right into this pricing thing, cause it comes up for me a lot in my coaching and I know that you talk about it a lot on social and everywhere else. Let's just go right there. What are some of the common fears and mental blocks that you see photographers facing when it comes to raising their prices? Because I hear a lot well, what's going to happen to my current pricing? I mean my current? You know clients at this pricing, right? So like that fear of losing the people that you had. So what are some of the things that you see come up and what is your? What is your advice for dealing with?

Speaker 2: 2:35

that essentially. I don't think it's necessarily. I think if people really distilled what they were feeling down, I don't think that it's that they are so worried that they won't find new clients with their new prices. I think so much of it has to do with this insecurity that we have around losing our current clients and fear of judgment, and it's all entangled in human nature. But because we are it, we are almost all exclusively solopreneurs, like most photographers are not part of a really large team with somebody in corporate making setting their prices right. So we are it. We are the ones responsible for that and we know that. Our clients know that, so that when we set our price, we are putting it out there like this is what I cost and it's my decision.

Speaker 2: 3:33

And another piece is that most of us are women and we're people pleasers and we are caretakers and we want to take care of everybody. Everybody deserves photos, right, all that narrative to take care of everybody. Everybody deserves photos, right, all that narrative. So we really worry about offending people too and not being able to provide this thing that we think is not a luxury, and forgetting that there are photographers at other price points that can accommodate those folks who have a smaller budget. But yeah, I think when you break it down, it comes to fear. It comes down to fear of rejection. A lot of imposter syndrome is in there. Geez, there's. There's so many factors that I think are at play here.

Speaker 1: 4:18

You really hit the nail on the head, though, right there. I think too, like the female people pleasing aspect of it, I see that all the time. I mean it's not just exclusively to women, I will say that, but you know it is. It's very common for female solopreneurs and, like you said, we're wearing all the hats, we're doing all the things, and so the pressure all falls on us and that just triggers all kinds of unconscious programming that we all have in various ways, some more than others, and even those of us I talk about this a lot too. I didn't even think I had a whole lot of that, but when I was faced with like oh, when I really took a look at those numbers years ago and realized how much I I really did need to up my pricing and what it really should be at, it triggered all kinds of things. So I think that that is a really big factor too. One of the things I see a lot of women do specifically is that they just don't look at those numbers because they're like, oh, we're just going to just keep doing this because it's triggering. So look at those numbers, but when you do it, that's that factor that goes.

Speaker 1: 5:30

Okay, I got to get real with myself now. Now I know, and I can't go back to not knowing that I really need to be charging this for these albums or whatever it is, if I want to be profitable, and what am I going to do about that? If I want to be profitable, and what am I going to do about that? So, yeah, I mean for yourself, what was that journey like for you? Right, we all have our stories of you know fell into this and I wasn't a business person and I had to figure it out. What's your story coming to that moment?

Speaker 2: 6:01

So I want to. I just want, before I answer that, I want to acknowledge something that you said. Where it's like you can get, you can really bury your head really deep in the sand about your prices and just ignore them because nobody's going to take your camera away Once. Once you have your camera, you are in business, right, and it is really easy to ignore or not acknowledge that you are losing money, especially when it's a side hustle and you have a normal and this is like this is just for fun, this is my fun and where it's like, oh, actually I'm losing money now, but but yeah, for me.

Speaker 2: 6:37

I started out like most photographers. You know 94% of us do not have degrees in it, in this. You know 94% of us do not have degrees in this right, so I am part of that 94% and I left my career in teaching. I moved to a new area. I was an ESL teacher. Where I live now doesn't really have that population, so I had to figure something else out.

Speaker 2: 6:59

Anyway, started this because I thought if other people can do it, why can't I? And, of course, started out at $50 because I think that's a real, real start. And then, when I got to, I realized I needed to raise my price. I went to $100, which felt huge. And you do this compensatory thing where you start adding like two 4x6s and an 8x10. And this when you start to raise your four by sixes and an eight by 10. And this when you start to raise your prices because you need to feel like you need a tangible value in to go along with your, your price increase. And that's why I talk a lot about increasing your, your value, without increasing overhead, and that's a whole other thing. But so then I did that, and then I went to 185. And then I was like getting burnt out as I would, and then it was to 399, because 400 would be too much right, and 400 in were felt to me like oh and this is, or 399 felt like this is where I'm going to max out, I'm going to stay here.

Speaker 2: 8:10

Going to stay here, and I was attracting a new type of client at $399, but was overbooked and burnt out. And then I did my taxes that year and I think I had netted $5,000 and I had worked my butt off. Can I curse on here? Yeah, you can. Okay, I worked my ass off, and so that was when I was like, okay, well, I need to raise my prices significantly more. I actually crunched the numbers that year and you know, I think what helped was that I took on a really big piece of overhead that year as I started renting a studio, and so there was an expense I could not ignore.

Speaker 2: 8:44

Year is I started renting a studio, and so there was an expense I could not ignore. You know, my camera was not costing me money every month and I was still editing with free editing software. So I actually it was during the. It was when the Adobe suite was something you just spent like $1,500 on once and then you had it, so that was already paid for. There were no ongoing expenses being incurred until I got the studio. And then I was like, before there were no ongoing expenses being incurred until I got the studio.

Speaker 2: 9:06

And then I was like, okay, I need to be serious about this. And I saw 800 was where I needed to go, so, once again doubling my prices. What I did, though, was pretty strategic and I didn't realize it at the time was, instead of doing that, I moved to a session fee model, so a session fee package model, so it was like $200 session fee and then multiple digital packages that would eventually get me to $800. And it enabled me to see the data. What are people actually willing to spend? Are my clients willing to spend $800? And they were, so that emboldened me to then go to $800 and then to 950. And then, right now, I'm at 1200. So, but that took 10 or 11 years. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1: 9:54

Yeah, no, I had something you know, kind of similar and it, you're right, like I mean, most of this are self-taught. We sort of fall into it, you know. I mean it was something I had done for a long time and never thought it was something I could do and make money at it. It was just like a hobby and I think that you know, I see a lot of that. You know, by the time people do come to me in coaching, they're usually trying to get out of that. They're in that gray zone, that middle area of what.

Speaker 1: 10:18

You know you're not super cheap but you're definitely not considered luxury, right, and like it feels too scary to do that. But you know, to be sustainable you do need to raise that. And it's such a hard thing to do on your own sometimes because you do feel like you're isolated and like how am I, how can I do this, especially if you don't have a lot of natural business? You know, with most, most of us don't, most of us are creatives, you know, and so we have to sort of figure that part out as we go. There's a rare group of people who are both, but you know, it's definitely not the norm from what I see it's a really hard thing to come to, like it's like you really do have to have that come to Jesus moment with yourself, like you said, like with taxes or when you're really faced with those numbers, and it's like, okay, well, what do I do now? How do I make this work? The big part of that, too, is I always tell people like yes, it's a strategy, we do need to come up with what works for you, because I'm a big believer in that. It is not one size fits all. What works for me here in my market and my target client. The basic strategy of that is you can duplicate that, but we need to make that really intentional with your region, your clients and also how you want to run your business.

Speaker 1: 11:44

That is a really big factor, and something I see a lot of creatives deal with is not really knowing what that is, because they're inundated by all of this noise of what they think they should have, what they think they should be doing, and so that's a really big, I think factor in all of this is, like you know, quieting the noise around us enough to like really focus on what do I really want this business to look like? Do I want to be high volume. Do I want to be luxury, like what? What feels good to you instead of comparing yourself constantly to other people and that getting into that trap of you know feeling like you have to constantly be playing that game. So when you're working with photographers and just in general, in your own pricing, you know setting that. You know what do you tell people about aligning their pricing with their long-term business goals? Like is that I've seen you talk about the importance of that, but how do you address it for yourself and in your communities?

Speaker 2: 12:49

Yeah, I totally agree with you. There is so much noise and it's funny how most photographers will pay attention to the, but everybody else in my area is $100 million like that sort of mindset. You got to know how to run a basic cost of doing business, right? So you need to know what that is and then what your time is worth to you. And I think that there's a tipping point and I'm sure that you have tipped the scale already in your business where your time becomes your currency, not the dollar, right? So your time is so much more finite and you can you already know now okay, I can, I can buy back some time, I can buy back other things, but I and I can make more money, but I can't get I can't get more time in my day. So you get to that point, but until you are at that tipping point, the way I tell the people that I coach and mentor is like you got to do shitty things for a while and I haven't figured out a way to fast track through.

Speaker 2: 13:56

That is not being as profitable as you want to be, Because, aside from needing to stay in business by having profitable pricing, you also need to have the trust of your market and the reputation, and there's just no way to rush that. So you get there and I have a lot of different strategies for raising your prices slowly, comfortably, because it has to be comfortable for you too. And then, yeah, what is your vision? Because there is not one way to do it. There used to be the narrative that like, yes, IPS was it. It had to be luxury, why would you? But that's not it. You can be a volume, you can run a business with a volume model, you can be mid-range, but you need to figure out what's the trade-off. So if you want to be mid-range which I agree, that's like the majority of the people I work with are mid-range, which is a difficult place to bait.

Speaker 2: 14:57

It's a really swollen part of the market, isn't it? So if you want to be that, then what's the trade-off? How are you going to make this more efficient for yourself? What are you going to outsource? You need to make sure that your overhead is low enough to sustain you at this mid-range price point, because maybe those are the people you love to work with. There's no shame in that, but it has, like you're saying, it has to be strategic. There has to be intention when you are setting these prices and math a lot of math.

Speaker 1: 15:24

There has to be intention when you are setting these prices and math, a lot of math, absolutely no, it definitely has to be. The math part is usually kind of what trips people up to. I feel like such a big piece of it. I mean, I, I definitely was that kid who was triggered by math. I was always told that I was bad at it. Like it goes back, I think that what they did to us in school like honestly, honestly, like seriously, it's a crime. Um, we weren't bad at math, we just weren't being taught the right way.

Speaker 1: 15:50

Like all of us, creative, spicy brains or whatever, like I'll learn differently, you know, and you know with my psychology training and then, like you know, nlp training that I went through. Like we all have our own way of accessing information and not, yeah, most of us are probably somewhat visual because we're artists, but a lot of us are kinesthetic learners and so having a kid with special needs really was like my. You know, it shined a bright light on that for me, and I see it a lot in coaching and just in our communities as well, where you're taught a certain way of just anything and it's like it's just not sticking. It's not sticking, and so that does go along with what we're talking about, too, of, like, what works for you, what what's going to really work for you, because it's true, like you know, we can give you the roadmap, we can give you this strategy that worked for us and it may or may not stick for you. What matters is, you know, are you able, is your nervous system going to be able to hold that as well? Like, do you have some past triggers with money that you haven't dealt with? Cause, most of us are working from our past. You know, we're working from what we were told about it, whether it was like caregivers, parents telling us that it was hard to make you needed to work really hard.

Speaker 1: 17:06

Whatever it is, we have our own story, and we tend to put that on our clients as well. We tend to assume they're going to have that same map of the world and perspective as we do, and we don't, and that is a very, very big piece of it is you know, okay, let's figure out, like, like you said, do you want to stay in this mid range? Well, okay, how can you do that profitably? Then, like, and and also with your time, because I'm going to tell you, like, my time is. My time is the most valuable thing, and I was building this business with three kids under the age of two, one with special needs.

Speaker 1: 17:43

I I did not have time to do in-person consults. I did not have time to do all these things that we're going to like lead into this experience to, you know, add value to this experience that I was charging for. So how could I? I had to get really creative about how am I going to do that on my terms that works for me and my family and unfortunately, I think what happens a lot is that photographers just don't take that into consideration and they just go ahead and just do. They just lay themselves on the table.

Speaker 1: 18:16

Get back to that people pleasing thing that we were talking about before of. Well, let me just do everything for everybody else. You know, I see I see people online all the time talking about how they feel guilty about sending voice. Are they like they're leaving this session? I saw a really funny reel about a photographer being like you know laugh and like there were thousands of comments on this reel about this you know photographer saying that she felt so guilty sending the invoice for, like, the engagement session or whatever it was after she had spent hours with this couple. It's like, you guys, you gotta, we gotta, work on that.

Speaker 2: 18:53

Yeah, yeah, yeah, the the guilt it is. It is so much um having to do with our, our programming surrounding money and everything. Uh, because, um, there, if there's one thing that I've learned is that my relationship with money is not my client's relationship with money and the the other thing is that, um, I don't, I don't assume any. I don't assume that somebody who pulls up in a Lexus is going to be more willing to pay me than somebody who pulls up in like a Dodge Neon. So, because I actually have these clients who I know are working minimum wage jobs that hire me at full price, and then I have people who have way more money, or at least seem to that nickel and dime me. So I put all of those pretenses aside now and it's just like plain and simple. Here's what it is. This is what it costs to work with me.

Speaker 2: 19:53

I do have options that I call like my back pocket offers and my foot in the door offers, because I appreciate the trepidation around spending a lot of money on a service when you haven't done it before with that person. So I will do pop-ups. I very much have the mentality of the like boots to the ground marketing that I did early in my business still has a place in my marketing scheme now. It actually is a really big piece of my marketing and networking. So I will still do street fairs where I have a portrait pop up and that doesn't compare to having a full family session with me, but it gives people a taste of what it's like to work with me. They meet me, which is huge. It is so big to be able to get physically in front of of a prospect. So, yeah, sorry, I'm tangenting out as I will.

Speaker 1: 20:50

No, that's important, that's a big piece of it though, because a lot of people feel like I feel like a lot of photographers are sort of like, have the mindset of that they're working. Okay, if I, if I do all this hard work now, then I can just relax and not have to do as much marketing later. That's just not the reality. It's like and that's a really good point bring up, because unfortunately the marketing never stops that doesn't mean you have to kill yourself doing it 24 seven. There are things you know that you can do to get more efficient. You know their systems and processes and all kinds of automations, et cetera, that you know ideally, you want to implement so that you aren't on the hook for your marketing all the time. But it doesn't replace being physically, especially when we're talking about a higher end service. It doesn't replace being physically in your market. Social media is not a replacement for that, even SEO. I think all those things need to work together. Your SEO strategy, your in-person marketing, your word of mouth and that social media piece those all need to work together. As your SEO strategy, your in-person marketing, your word of mouth and you know that social media piece, those all need to work seamlessly together and, ideally, when they are working together.

Speaker 1: 22:02

You don't feel like you're constantly. You know marketing per se, but you I see a lot of photographers kind of forget about that piece of it. They feel like, oh, if I just get to this place, but if you just kind of understand that, if I just get to this place, but if you just kind of understand that, no, I just need to create a better system for me and my life and how I want this to look. And you can. You definitely can, but sometimes it is trial and error. Sometimes you have to experiment with some things and sometimes you have to do some things that you're like, yep, that's absolutely no, like I will, that's, that's something that I, that's something that I don't want to continue doing.

Speaker 1: 22:39

But there is no replacement for really continuing to have that foothold in your local market. So, those back pocket offers, those other things that you have, and I want to dive into a little bit of that, because one of the things that you talk about a lot is this profitable mini session, because many sessions in our industry gets a very bad rap and a lot of photographers are like I hate them, you know, like I just, and they hate them because they're on the hook for very little money and spending too much time, whether it's with editing or the whole process or whatever, and they haven't figured out how to make that profitable. So you know how? How have you turned that perception on its head?

Speaker 2: 23:25

So what is more, um, more of the mechanism that the mini sessions serve me is the way that I model them, and that is as a and I think all mini sessions should be this way. But I don't think they are. I think many photographers sell mini sessions as one-off 30-minute sessions and that is just, of course. You don't like it. So I do mine 15 or 20 minutes back-to-back at the same location one weekend, that's it, and I'll do like six in the night.

Speaker 2: 23:57

For me, at this stage of my business, they are priced at $400. And you get a voucher for five digitals, for the five digital package, but of course there's other digital packages and you can use that voucher to redeem a bigger one. And, without fail, more than half of my clients buy the whole package, which ends up being $800 total that I gross on the mini session in 15 or 20 minutes and only 5% don't upgrade at all. So everybody else is somewhere in between and this is very profitable. Profitable. It normally ends up being around 400 to $500 an hour when I factor in the onboarding of it. You know the marketing and all that stuff, which is easy because it's a mini session. There's not a whole lot of.

Speaker 1: 24:44

Yeah, and you're duplicating it each time you do it.

Speaker 2: 24:46

Yeah, yeah, it's yes. And then the editing, the calling in, the editing is also super efficient. Thank you AI. So it all gets done very quickly and then I get that money and it's a quick hit for them, it's a quick hit for me. I see it as a win-win. But I use the same model for model, calls micro sessions, like my pop-ups, anything like that I like. I think consumers do well, or I guess we do well when our consumers have a coupon you know, and they think about it as this money that they have to spend.

Speaker 2: 25:28

The $400 that they gave me is long gone. You know that's that was a long time ago that they they paid that to me and if they are anything like me as buyers, like sure, what's another $400? I'll get the rest of the photos now. But what this does is that after a family books me for a mini session for a few years, they start to see like all right, for another $400, I could have way more control over how this session looks and where it is and how long it is and who's involved and how my dog it could be in my house. All that and then people graduate to my full sessions, because I hear a lot of educators say that many session clients are not the same as session clients.

Speaker 1: 26:11

Yeah, I wanted to talk about that.

Speaker 2: 26:13

That's not. That is, people are proving that to be wrong in my business all the time. Um, I think if you do it correctly and you make them way more profitable for you, um, then it becomes a no brainer eventually for that person to then go in and invest in your main offer.

Speaker 1: 26:31

Yeah, I agree, I agree with that. Um, and let me just also ask you when you're doing these minis? Like you said, it's just that weekend and this is not like all the time, correct? No, once a year. Now they're once a year.

Speaker 2: 26:46

They don't get advertised, they only go to my email list. In fact now they only go to a segment of my email list. I have associates who one of them loves to do many sessions, so she does several rounds of mini sessions during the year that we will advertise, but my mini sessions are only for past mini session clients and they go out to that segment of my email list for booking and then they book up and in fact last year I did one day of them because that list is getting smaller and it's just becoming a part of this ladder to get people to invest with me for a full session.

Speaker 1: 27:21

Yeah Well, there's a couple of things there too, right? So that's how I Same with me. If I'm going to do them, it's going to be just once a year. It's very limited. It's 15, 20 minutes back to back.

Speaker 1: 27:32

Same sort of idea, same sort of structure, Back to that. Same sort of idea. Same sort of structure, same sort of buy-in, Exactly, Almost exactly that, with that pricing as well. And it's very easy for me to get my mini session clients to invest another six, eight, well over a thousand sometimes as well. It's not uncommon for me to sell albums to my mini session clients. So you know, I would agree that it is not always a different client Sometimes it is, sometimes like there have been cases, but it's rare for me because of the way that it's modeled and I think that it also depends, like you said, on like at this place of your business and how long you've been in business and the fact that you do email your clients and you have that relationship.

Speaker 1: 28:20

That's a factor as well, Like that kind of marketing is important with this. So I want to kind of bring that into it a little bit, like the branding part of it, like the building this brand to sustain this kind of like. You can turn this on and off when you want to. You can project like okay, you know what A really great idea is to do a promo in early summer for families, especially because, let's face it, holidays get really busy. Why not just knock this out in the early summer if you wanted to, instead of even doing it right before the holidays? You could earn that on in your business if you want to earn that on in your business if you want to and that would you know.

Speaker 1: 28:56

For for my audience especially, like I have a lot of senior photographers who listen you know, late May, early June tends to be like you want to get those clients in and it's hard to get those clients in.

Speaker 1: 29:13

You could, you could do a little, you could do a little modified mini thing too, you know. And so it just takes some creative thinking about how and strategic thinking about how you want to get that done with the branding part of it. So as you're building, let's say, someone who is listening is sort of still in that model of trying to build this photography business. Maybe they're in the mid range already and they're kind of wanting to get out of it. They don't see a way out of it and they feel like minis are like a quick hit. What are some of the things that that photographer can be doing now to build into this kind of model that we've been talking about, where, yes, you can go into luxury, you can do IPS or you can do a modified IPS thing, or you can turn on some minis? What would you say is one of the biggest factors, or maybe a handful of factors that photographers need to be thinking about as they're building this brand?

Speaker 2: 30:11

As far as including mini sessions in their brand or like well, yes, or the brand they aspire to be.

Speaker 1: 30:18

Right, like so, basically, as they build the kind of brand that they want to work to, that's, a little bit more luxury, and yet still be able to infuse it with pop-ups, like mini sessions or pop-up sessions or model calls, things like that. Like how you were talking about how some we hear a lot about how there's a disconnect, okay, of that like you're talking to two different clients. Well, if that's not true, right, when we've both seen proof of that in our business, what are some of the factors in their marketing and branding they need to be thinking about? I guess it's probably a better way to ask that question.

Speaker 2: 30:53

Well, like where are you finding your clients Are? Are they aligned? A better way to ask that question yeah Well, where are you finding your clients? Are they aligned? Are they aligned? So I think finding aligned people is the most important factor, and I don't subscribe to the client avatar thing, because I have so many people that I love working with, who love to work with me, who are a big part of growing my business, who are so different, so I can't compartmentalize them. But finding aligned clients who appreciate you, who don't come in with their Pinterest boards right and try to micromanage because that is what happens inevitably when you're inexpensive is people see you as a hired gun and they're like I can just get this kid with a camera and they're going to do whatever I tell them.

Speaker 2: 31:42

I'm going to show up with Christmas lights to wrap my kid around for a big shot and things that probably aren't on brand for you. So finding these aligned clients is the most important thing, and figuring out how to spot them and how to communicate to them. Being consistent in your portfolio and your online portfolio is huge, and I don't think that there's one style of photography that is more high-end than the other, but I think the act of being consistent is high-end being consistent and predictable, ignoring the trends when they come along and you get bright, shiny object syndrome and you're like I want to try that.

Speaker 2: 32:19

I want to change this, I want to do this, I want to do this. Try to just, even if you're getting bored, try to keep doing the thing that you're doing because, being consistent and predictable, you're just going to keep getting better and better and better and better at what you do and, when the time comes, niche down. Early photographers are going to get this advice that they need to niche, but you can't niche until you know what you really want to be doing, what you're really good at and what your market needs. Graduate with you as your business grows, instead of these people who you think you have to treat as legacy clients, who get your original pricing and then you resent seeing every year when they book you during the busy season.

Speaker 1: 33:04

Yeah, no, for sure. I think that resonance is really key, finding those aligned clients, and so, yeah, I would agree that it starts. It starts with the most you that you can be and you know, the more that you double down on that and and are intentional with, instead of trying to try on all these different things. Like you said, the consistency of your brand is very, very important, but you kind of do have to start with well, what is that? And a lot of people don't know, and so that's kind of that disjoint, that's that problem, See a lot of photographers dealing with initially, and then, yeah, from there, like you said, you know, I would agree that our clients can be varied, for sure, even within a niche. Yeah, I've got, I've got people who spend well over six or $7,000 on a senior portrait experience and they're not necessarily what you would stereotypically call super wealthy, and those clients are very different from me as well. They're not always super aligned with who I am. However, there is a resonance, whether it, whether it's like with my vibe, my work, your work, definitely as photographers, is going to be the thing that initially will attract that, you know. But I always kind of use that example of, like it's kind of people.

Speaker 1: 34:27

People do get a little hung up on the client avatar and I do think it's important in some niches more than others. In seniors, I feel like it's a little more important because our teen clients are very trendy and so, as a senior photographer, we do need to know what those trends are, not so that we can change our style, but we do need to be aware of what our client wants, needs and is craving, so that we can decide whether we want to meet them where they are, or an experiment or not, while still keeping our brand very consistent and our messaging. But if you know that from the get-go, that golden thread is just going to be there anyway and you can kind of play and be creative and things like that. But just because you're marketing to this client avatar too, it doesn't mean you're not going to attract other people. You know I talk about this a lot. I don't have a baby anywhere on my website, but I still get inquiries for babies Like why would you ask me to photograph your baby Please? You know what I mean.

Speaker 2: 35:28

Yeah.

Speaker 1: 35:30

When your brand is strong, when your messaging is strong and you have that good resonance, people are going to just assume that, oh well, I love your work or I love something about you. Will you shoot this, you know, and it's like I'm going to refer you to somebody? Awesome, I am not going to do that. Or you can decide if you want to. Right. Right, that's up to you. Yes, but all that to say when you're talking to you know your client in that way, it doesn't mean you're only talking to that one person. Like you said, you are going to attract these other people and I think, like you said, it goes back to having that strong brand consistency across everything, and that really will carry you really really far.

Speaker 2: 36:14

I think yeah, because people who are looking to spend thousand plus dollars aren't going to just go to anybody. They're gonna go to somebody who they really love and they're not going to really love you, your work, if they scroll back a couple of weeks and you were doing something totally different. So that is where I think it's so boring. But I think that's where the magic happens for people who stay in business is just being consistent.

Speaker 1: 36:41

Yeah, exactly no, I agree. And so, like I think that's for those of you guys listening, I think that's a really big takeaway from this, and I know that it can feel confusing, like you know, when, when you like consistency, that could be a big umbrella, let's say Right. So, like you said, it can feel boring and, as creatives and photographers, I think a lot of us have that. Like you said, this bright, shiny I always call it bright shiny object syndrome. Like you want to try this, you want to try that A lot of this comes down to like your own, your own personal boundaries and not allowing yourself to get sucked into that as well.

Speaker 1: 37:21

So if that means you're really hardcore about how often you're on social media, you're really hardcore about who you follow and who you interact with, because the algorithm is just going to feed you what you're doing, right? So if you're scrolling and you're looking at nothing but other photographers' work, that's what's you know, you're going to get stuck in that, and so that's one of the big things I talk about a lot. It's like, okay, where do you draw that line between inspiration and oh, my God, I suck in comparison and all of that stuff.

Speaker 2: 37:50

So yeah, that would be yeah, exactly, tune it out.

Speaker 1: 37:54

You've got to really know yourself in that way and kind of have that self-awareness too, of balancing that. I want to be supportive to maybe some other friends in the industry, but I also don't want to get stuck in this place of like okay, I am so confused now, and now I'm in, I'm frozen in like overwhelm and I don't know where to go.

Speaker 2: 38:17

Right, Well, the other thing is how many of us have ADHD?

Speaker 1: 38:22

Exactly.

Speaker 2: 38:23

Right. So, for whatever reason, so many photographers actually have diagnosed ADHD.

Speaker 2: 38:28

And that makes that distraction so much more difficult to resist. And yeah, it is the people, my mentees, who are earlier in their career, like following all these other photographers and like I love this, I love it. You got to just like keep your eyes on your own paper for a little while and and find out, like when you get home from a session and you're calling, like what is really getting you excited about what you just did, and try to find that common thread about what you do and and learn, then learn how to admire but not feel like you have to replicate because this is a business. I feel like I feel like that's been a thing for me lately that I'm encountering a lot is I'm getting the impression that a lot of photographers are not realizing or just treating this like it's a business before anything else.

Speaker 2: 39:22

It's not a hobby. It's not a hobby where you go and you post your pictures on Instagram and then ask for work. It's an actual business. So there's going to be parts that you don't want to do. You're in work with people you don't want to work with and you're going to have to get bored or whatever. It's work.

Speaker 1: 39:40

It's a job.

Speaker 2: 39:41

It's a great job and I think we're a little spoiled because of how great it is, so that anytime it gets like a little bit frictiony, we're like, oh, this is not okay, I'm, you know, but it's a job at the end of the day.

Speaker 1: 39:51

Yeah, no, that's a bit that. Yeah, a hundred percent. And the novelty, like the bright, shiny object syndrome, is because a lot of us, like you said, whether you have diagnosed ADHD or you're undiagnosed, or you just feel like you might be somewhere in that, you know, like chances are, you probably have a little bit of a spicy brain, you know. If you're drawn to this kind of, if you're an entrepreneur in general, but if you're a creative entrepreneur and a photographer especially, we do really well here.

Speaker 1: 40:18

Yeah, you know this is our space, right, and so you're drawn to the, the excitement, the newness, the fun, um, you're drawn to the chaos, the I have to do 500, you know like, because, honestly, it's not like you can't, it's not that you can't focus, is that you can, you can hyper-focus, but you also have a hard time probably deciphering what needs to be focused on first. That is usually where that business, the business part, comes in and you realize, oh, this was a really fun hobby, and now I actually have to figure out how to make money at it. I got to figure out how to sell, I got to figure out the psychology of it and do all these things. And then you get stuck in this ADHD shutdown like overwhelm mode and then it's like I can't do anything like freeze, yeah, so if you're there, you know if somebody is there. Before we wrap up, what is your biggest piece of advice for people in that space? Cause that is something I hear a lot in my DMs yeah, oh yeah.

Speaker 2: 41:21

Find a way because because I do think that, like ADHD, brains do well when they multitask Normally, like we have to be ignoring one thing so that we can focus on something else, and find rhythms that work for you and find the creativity in the, because that's what worked for me. I found I am so much more creative in my business than I am in the art that I produce and it's commissioned, right, I'm doing commissioned work. I have to stay within the parameters of what I advertise that I do. So at the end of the day, that is not, as I don't have as much freedom there.

Speaker 2: 42:01

So when you, if you do have that sort of brain, find a way to exercise it within the admin, because there is a lot of creative problem solving needed in that part of your business and that's really all creativity is is solving a problem. So find that and apply it there. And it's so hard when you like, decide what you're going to hyper-focus on and perseverate over, but, but, but look for it because it's there, it's in the business, and then understand like that can be the fun part, that can be the creative part, that's where you can experiment and try new things and you won't get bored back there Like you are not going to get bored in the business. That's my advice.

Speaker 1: 42:47

Yeah, no, it's true, because you know if you've got that kind of brain, you're lacking in dopamine, like if you want to look at the scientific pieces of it, right. So anytime you're doing any of these things seeking novelty, you're just seeking dopamine. You just think. You know you're seeking that hit and it is a drug to our brain. So if you're low in dopamine, you're constantly going to be seeking that, and so knowing that and just being aware of that, um, that's a big piece of it. So, if you know, if you know that scrolling on social media is giving you a dopamine hit, like you've got to be, you've got to set your parameters with your own boundaries as well. So, you know, sometimes that means I have to like not just turn off. You know, my turn on my, do not disturb. That's not enough sometimes for me. Like sometimes when I have a lot going on and like a lot of ideas, a lot of deadlines, a lot of things that I need to do, that I know is a recipe for like complete shutdown for me and I have to like. I have to like lock my phone away. I have to put it away, like in another physical location. In my house I've set timers for things like that. There's certain things that I have to do, and chunking the time into small increments as well, like for me, like 90 minutes, I'll give myself like a 90 minute deep dive if I'm like having to like really focus hard on something and then I'm going to give myself a break. You know, like knowing yourself is a really big piece of this, because not every person with ADHD either is exactly like the other person with with ADHD, like, where our brains are all very unique.

Speaker 1: 44:24

So anything that you can do, I believe, to dig deeper into your self-awareness and understand yourself so that you can make it, like you said, work for you. Like I always tell my clients if you're not a morning person and you can sleep in, like, why not do that? You know what I mean. Who says you have to wake up at five 30 in the morning? Like, if, if you don't have kids to take to school and you know you don't have you can schedule your day to make it make sense for you. So if you are more creative at night, okay, do some work at night. Like, there are ways to do this where you can make this business work for you and you'll end up thriving if you do that. But that feeling like I should fit into this. You know this mold. You got to throw that out the window. Like you're creative, you're never going to fit into a mold.

Speaker 2: 45:16

Yeah, but that's what's so great about um finding this career.

Speaker 1: 45:21

Yeah, yeah, the freedom yourself. I think we're all after the freedom.

Speaker 2: 45:24

Yeah, oh, absolutely Right, that is what. Yeah, that is what it's about for me. Yeah, freedom for sure.

Speaker 1: 45:31

People will say, well, I just want to make you know a lot of money. I'm like, yeah, but that's just the, that's just the outcome really after is the freedom that the money is going to give you too.

Speaker 2: 45:40

Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's it. That is it Exactly.

Speaker 1: 45:43

All right. Well, this has been awesome. Thank you for sharing all of that. Yeah, I could talk about pricing and psychology of it and all of that all day long, but tell people where they can find you and, like, where do you like to connect with people most? And I'll put all of that obviously in the show notes for people too.

Speaker 2: 46:00

So I'm pretty chatty on Instagram. My Instagram handle is at Jill C Smith photography, but if you want to learn more about what I do on the educational front, you'll find that at the business focused photographercom or on my podcast, the business focused photographer.

Speaker 1: 46:17

Yep, awesome, all right, well, I will share that with everybody. And again, always good chatting with you. So thanks so much for being here.

Speaker 2: 46:25

I appreciate it.

Speaker 1: 46:26

So good, right, okay. So some of the takeaways that I think you guys can walk away with today are your business can look like however you want it to look like, but you need to get some clarity around what you want that to look like. So if you don't have the clarity on that, make that a priority. Another one is that you probably have a spicy brain, you're probably a creative, and so stop trying to fit into the mold of whatever you think you should be doing right Like. So throw the shoulds out the window and figure out what works for you and your brain so that you can have a really profitable but also fulfilling business. Because if the business is running you into the ground and you're constantly feeling like you don't know what to focus on next, it's probably a disconnect in your purpose. It could be a disconnect in how you are going out with your branding and what that golden thread is, and maybe you don't even know what that is, so dig into that. And obviously, another takeaway is pricing. If you are't even know what that is, so dig into that. And obviously, another takeaway is pricing If you are triggered by some of the stuff that we talked about, if that made you start to think about okay, I am running my business like a hobby, I haven't really made money, I haven't looked at my numbers, the numbers are too triggering or whatever. That is it's time. Okay, make 2025 the year that you decide you're going to make some changes. And if you need help with that, you have so many options in this industry. Truly, you know, I offer mentoring, I offer coaching Jill does. There's so many of us who do so.

Speaker 1: 47:57

You need to find somebody who you vibe with. You need to find somebody who can help you do what you want to get done, and obviously you need to vet that person and make sure it's aligned. But stop making excuses. If you are just sort of like doing the same thing over and over again and getting the same result because nothing is going to change until you do. I know that's a cliche, but it's 100% true. You can absolutely have the business that you desire.

Speaker 1: 48:23

Okay, and you might need some help getting there, but it is money well spent and I can promise you that it makes a huge difference. Not even just like the outcome of it, right, like the transformation is awesome, but the first step of investing in yourself is a really bold statement to yourself and to the universe, and you are putting it out there that I'm ready. I am done doing the same thing that I have been doing. I'm done. Okay, I'm ready for something bigger, better, more, and I am, I am. I am boldly making a statement and taking action.

Speaker 1: 49:06

So, if that's you, you can always book a free call with me, too, to chat and we can see how I can help you with your business. And if I feel like I can, I'm going to point you in a direction that I feel would serve you better. I don't always take on one-on-one clients. I still run a full-time photography business, so definitely reach out, and if I don't have space for you at that time, we can talk about putting you on a wait list, and it might even be better for you to wait a couple months anyway. So let's just chat though, okay, take a step. So go out there and have a great rest of your week, be intentional with your time, be intentional with your business and do something good for yourself today. Love you, your business, and do something good for yourself today. Love you, bye.