Speaker 1: 0:00

If you wanna get clients and you're trying to pre-qualify clients, your social platform should be pulling in clients and should be reflecting similar to what they say, meaning you should be writing for them, right?

Speaker 2: 0:12

Welcome to Tried and True with a dash of woo, where we blend rock solid tips with a little bit of magic. I'm Renee Bowen, your host, life and business coach and professional photographer at your service. We are all about getting creative, diving into your business and playing with manifestation over here. So are you ready to get inspired and have some fun? Let's dive in. Hey friends, welcome back to tried and true with the dash of woo.

Speaker 2: 0:39

Today we're talking more about psychology and pricing and sales and making money, and you know it's like my favorite thing to talk about. But I'm not just talking about it alone. Today I do have a really awesome guest for you, and she has some really interesting insights that I really think you're going to find super valuable. So Kiri is a podcaster herself. She has a podcast called Freelance to Freedom and it gives bite-sized lessons to online business owners on how to scale and earn money as a consultant or a freelancer. She's also a coach and through her coaching, she helps people with corporate backgrounds design businesses that provide both flexibility and earn successful income.

Speaker 2: 1:21

And today we're going to be talking all about the psychology of booking clients, how to attract more of the right clients and how to qualify those dream clients without wasting your time. So, whether you're a creative entrepreneur in general, a photographer, like a lot of my audiences, you're going to find this conversation really, really helpful and I know you're going to be inspired, so let's dive in. Hey, keri, thanks so much for being here today. I want to just dive right in. You've created something called the Reflection Framework that I've heard you speak about and I think it's really interesting, really insightful and such a great tool. So can you break it down for us Basically? How does it help us land more clients? How does it just help us in our businesses in general?

Speaker 1: 2:06

Absolutely. So I came about this through my own trial and error in my business and then teaching it to clients to see if it would work when I started coaching, and what it really comes down to is a lot of people get this information when they're starting a business. About branding right, like pick your branding colors, choose things that light you up, et cetera and I'm going to use myself as an example here. I love pastels, like Easter colors are my jam. Okay. So light green and light pink favorite combination. However, I noticed when I was using that branding and that's when I first started knew nothing about business. I wasn't bringing in clients that I really wanted to work with. So I started going around saying, okay, who do I want to work with? Right, because obviously it's about getting money at the end of the day, if you have a business and you want people to be able to pay a certain rate, right? One client I had that I gelled with so much was with a PR company, and so I said, okay, maybe I want to work with PR companies and in cities and startups when they need this kind of extra freelance support. And I started looking at their webpages and they were all very similar because they all are speaking the same language. So then I thought well, what if I just make my webpage like theirs, because that's what they're used to seeing and that's the kind of vibe that they're looking for to see if you're going to fit culturally right? So I did a whole analysis, and this is what I teach my students as well. Even just simple, on a Word doc or Excel sheet, whatever you want, let's say you pick five to 10 ideal companies or clients that you want to work with. What are the colors that they use? How many pages do they have? You can go deeper and do marketing as well, which is part of the framework, but, like, if we just stick to web pages, right, how many pages do they have? Do they have a blog? Do they not have a blog? Do they have case studies? Do they have testimonials? What kind of fonts are they using? What kind of headers are they using? And then I would even go into, like what kind of language are they trying to convey? Then I would even go into, like what kind of language are they trying to convey? So, are they speaking knowledge? Are they saying this is how we can help you? Are they more of like a confidence. We are the best at what we do, we have won all these accolades, we've been featured this many times, et cetera. Are they more of like a support, you know bridging the gap of like I can take you from here to there and if you let us help you, this is what you're going to see, right? Are they more of the panic, like? Are they looking for people that are like you need help desperately. We're here to help you, right?

Speaker 1: 4:30

And then, once you have that down and you kind of look at all these different clients, you start seeing similarities. It's really uncanny, right. You start seeing like I was just doing this with a client the other day. He is working to help students with college Lots of blues and reds. And then I started being like well, what's Harvard's logo? Oh, it's red, what's Stanford's? And you know we were like oh, that's why. So all these like college consultants are choosing these like Ivy League colors. So we want to make sure that he has it in there, because it's a subconscious that goes on right.

Speaker 1: 5:04

I have another client. All her clients are ideal clients and some that she hasn't right now Minimalist, black, white, bold, very clear cut. So then we start changing her webpage to be more like that and again like going back to also even photos. Are they showing their whole team? And they've all got circle photos? Do they have square photos? Do they have an overlay?

Speaker 1: 5:23

We're getting into like nitty gritty with websites here, but basically what I started doing is, bit by bit, working on my site and correcting it. Took out all the pastels which made me sad, I think when I was freelancing. It was a very dark blue, dark green, reds and whites, because that's what kind of was it I make them do primary and tertiary, secondary and tertiary colors too. And that just started pre-qualifying clients, because when you're reaching out or doing cold pitching, or even if someone hears about you and their referral, they go to your webpage and they say, oh yeah, I want to work with this person. Why? Because you are basically reflecting back to them and what they're like and so, of course, they're going to naturally like attracts, like they're going to naturally be attracted to you before even talking to you over someone else who might have pastels, unless you're trying to pull in people who have pastel colors. You know what I mean.

Speaker 2: 6:16

Yeah, no, it's such a great point and I talk about that a lot the unconscious. I have a big believer that our websites, anything extension of that, our socials, but our websites, really need to be doing the heavy lifting of all of this for us, right, that pre-qualifying, and so if it's not, you know which is not necessarily the whole topic we're going to be talking about is like just websites, but you know that is a very big piece of it. Well, if somebody hits your site, are you speaking to them? Are you hitting their unconscious? Are you making them calm? You making them feel like, oh my God, feel seen, right, that's kind of the deal is that you know every brand strategist out there is going to tell you that, like you want your clients to feel something, first of all, and also just feel seen and feel like a part of your brand when they hit your website. It qualifies, but it also disqualifies in that way too.

Speaker 2: 7:09

But no, you do want to disqualify some people because you're not for everybody. That kind of gets a little sticky for people and they have to get used to it right Of course, but I love that, the reflection framework wording of this, because it really is like what are you reflecting?

Speaker 1: 7:25

And we're not copying. I want to make that clear because I think sometimes people stumble upon it. They think like, oh, you're just copying. Like I don't know what themes they have, a designer they have, I don't know if they're using Squarespace, wordpress, whatever right Like, that's not my concern. My concern is, like what, these little details and making sure those are woven throughout your site, right, so that it just makes more sense. And you mentioned socials and that also builds into my framework, and I do have my clients track their ideal client's social posts for a month and see what are they posting. Is there some kind of regularity to what they're doing? Again, we think about the tone of voice. Is it all educational? Because if that's what they're doing, if they're active on social, then they're probably going to be more engaged with someone who's also doing those kinds of posts.

Speaker 2: 8:07

Yes, exactly, and like, specifically for me as a high school senior photographer, right, and a lot of my audiences out there, it's real specific too because, like, if you are marketing to and a lot of people are like you're just marketing to the parents, no, if you really do your research, you know that teenagers now and then even the younger teenagers coming up they're actually the ones calling the shots on who gets hired. Is that, even if they're spending a lot of money, their parents are actually obviously the ones paying for this service, but they're allowing their kids to decide who gets hired. So when that teenager hits your website, are they going to see something that looks like 2008 in a bad way? You know what I mean. Like, I feel like a lot of us get stuck in, like you said before, like the past hours. Well, I like this.

Speaker 2: 8:51

This is what I like. This is what you're a 45 year old woman. Are you marketing to other 40? You know what I mean. Like, yes, you need to think about going deep with your dream client. That's a really big piece of it. You kind of have to know that first.

Speaker 1: 9:06

So I'm sure you go into that. Yes, absolutely. I also tell people don't worry, this is not set in stone, because I think a lot of newer freelancers get into this whole like but if I change everything, I just you know it's stuck like this. No see what happens. See the kind of people that are reaching out to to you via social or, you know, responding to your DMs. See the consistency there and then make changes and make edits. That's a wonderful thing about business. As you know, it's fluid, and the more you experiment and the more you try different things, the more data and information you're going to have and you're going to be able to better promote yourself and market yourself.

Speaker 2: 9:39

For sure. So, with that idea of pre-qualifying, let's say, and like you know kind of what we're sort of talking about here as far as, like, yes, your branding and colors and things like that, what are some of the other pieces of that reflection framework that you go into?

Speaker 1: 9:54

So I do talk a lot about I mean, this is kind of removed from the reflection framework but the intake form on your website and how important that is, because you will waste so much time if you keep getting people who want to pay pennies and you're looking to make a lot more money. If your intake form is name, email, write me a message, okay. So there are ways within the intake form to pre-qualify. Actually, I guess it does kind of pull into a reflection framework, because I started noticing this with my clients as well. Like, look, oh, that ideal client of yours. They have like six or seven questions. Never go over 10 is what I say.

Speaker 1: 10:31

But you know, talking about, let's say, the students, right, that you're talking about with, like the teenagers and the photos and the parents who are paying for it Like even a simple question where are you located can tell you a lot about their socioeconomic status. Finding out if you're working with a company or a client, like do you have a team of subcontractors or employees? Just even that yes or no question. This is not true for everyone, okay, I know I'm journalizing a little bit here, but even that question can be like okay, they might have more funds than someone who's not. How many years have you been in business, right? Something like that? One to two years versus five to 10 is probably a lot different, or even five plus Right In terms of, like, managing their business, managing their balance and budget, knowing how much money they have to spend. And maybe they've already tried a few different photographers or social media managers or whoever, and they've had a bad run and now they're trying to you know, get some who's more qualified, et cetera, right, so even an intake form.

Speaker 1: 11:27

One of the things I've noticed in terms of pre-qualifying with the reflection method is that when I do the social media analysis, when you do that whole month of like what is each five of these people that I love so much, how do they post? It helps open my students' eyes to realize that they are usually not posting for their peers. And this is something I've noticed which I love. I love, love, love that social media is a place for community. Of course, like that is, it's social. You should meet other peers, but sometimes, when you start getting into the role of things, I see that a lot of freelancers will start posting for their peers.

Speaker 1: 12:04

Yep, and just saying hey this is what I'm doing for a client, this is what's worked, and role of things. I see that a lot of freelancers will start posting for their peers, yep, and just saying, hey, this is what I'm doing for a client, this is what's worked and this is how I change my business to make it work. But if you want to get clients and you're trying to pre-qualify clients, your social platform should be pulling in clients and should be reflecting similar to what they say, meaning you should be writing for them. Right, and I had this happen to a student recently.

Speaker 1: 12:27

She asked her client what do you think of my LinkedIn profile? Because she wanted to start getting active. He said it looks like you're trying to build a community for executive assistants. It doesn't look like you're trying to win clients. And she was like, oh my gosh, you're right. Everything I repost is about supporting executive assistants. Everything gosh, you're right, like everything I repost is about supporting executive assistants. Everything that I write about seems to be in response to freelancing as an EA and stuff like that.

Speaker 1: 12:52

And I said well, that's like good, I'm glad you asked him.

Speaker 1: 12:53

But I think that that part of the reflection framework is really really eye opening and then I'm sure you go into this tons, but thinking about really specializing in something and also making sure that your website copy speaks to that specialization.

Speaker 1: 13:07

And one of the things that I have students do as part of the reflection framework is actually go look up job openings on like ZipRecruiter, indeed, something like that full-time job openings and pull those buzzwords and phrases from different job openings, because then you're going to be like it, almost like does the work for you, right?

Speaker 1: 13:29

You look at this job post and you say oh, oh, yeah, I have the ability to work cross departmentally and like I don't know whatever profession is right and you can pull that and put that on your website. And then that's reflecting back to people who are seeking a freelancer like you, and they say, oh, yeah, and they don't even realize that they've heard it before because it's from a job posting somewhere, right. But I mean, obviously don't copy and paste, you're reading through your copy and that helps you get really specialized. When you look at all these job postings you say like I don't do that, but I do do this and I do do this and I'm going to make sure that is put into, like you know, professional, organized, great demeanor on the phone, whatever it is, design profession in Adobe, blah, blah, blah Right. So those are like other ways I help people pre-qualify through the framework.

Speaker 2: 14:17

Those are all such really great points. I kind of want to backtrack just a little bit and highlight some of that. Let's go back to the contact form, because that's a really big one. I feel like a lot of people don't think that deep with it. They think it's just something for them to reach out. But you can actually really pre-qualify, and I've also heard, like, especially like, let's say, in the wedding photography industry. I see a lot of people online who you know. They hit some of these contact forms and, like you said, like they're a little too long, they're a little too much Right, like, so, like you said, like there's that fine line of like what are the important things that are going to help you understand a little bit more about that client and, you know, be able to reflect, but also not give them so much fatigue where they're like, why do I have to fill out this information?

Speaker 1: 15:05

out.

Speaker 2: 15:06

Like some of these questions are like tell me about the first time you met and what. You know what I mean. It's like okay, you know what. Like maybe get to that as a at a consult. You know what I mean. Like there's certain questions you can just like maybe say what did you propose? Or like there's other little things that you can add into that that are going to give you some insights and also help them feel seen and feel like oh, you know, this is a high touch service. They obviously this person cares about the experience and I'm not just another client.

Speaker 2: 15:35

There's that that has to come into play, but I feel like some people take it a little too far as well. So I feel like there's definitely that middle ground to be thinking about. You know, like you want it to be useful and valuable to both of you, but not too much, right, I know for me, if I'm asking a high school senior to fill out like a multiple thing, like that's not going to happen. Some of them can do it really quick and some of them, like I, have a little side program, like a lot of us, your photographers will do like a little team where we it's sort of like an influencer team where they help us market our business, and so when I'm signing those kids up, I will ask them a lot more questions, because obviously I want them to be really in alignment with, like my brand and you know all of that, and those kids, like one of my questions that I even put on that is on a scale of one to 10, how sick of this form are you? And most of them would be like this was actually fun. So that gives you an indication, too, of like your target clients as well, because, like my target clients don't mind doing that because they're signing up for this, but people who are not wouldn't be.

Speaker 2: 16:39

So the other thing I wanted to mention, too, is what you said about marketing to your peers.

Speaker 2: 16:43

This is something that I see all the time and it's super easy to fall into that, like you want to be supportive, you want to have. You know you as a freelancer or an entrepreneur, you're going to have a different for you page than your target client is going to have as well, so you are going to naturally like and engage with content that is not necessarily like it's different, right, and so that's what we have to kind of remember that when we are dealing with our social media, I think, no matter what platform, and some more than others, but I feel like it's an easy trap to fall into, because that's how social media is designed it's designed to feed you what you engage with, yeah, but most of us are not engaging with our target clients enough, and that is the problem. So how can we do more of that? Because this is like just a hot topic. What is a tip that you share with your students on how to sort of break out of that trap?

Speaker 1: 17:41

Yeah, so I cannot take credit for this. This is actually something I learned from Shannon McKinstry on Instagram way back when, when she didn't have as many followers as she has now she's so many. My organization I co-founded partnered with her for something and she taught us on Instagram that really to grow an account and then I apply this to any social account 30 to 45 minutes is really ideal to see growth, like, it doesn't have to be four hours unless you're trying to reach influencer status, right. So she would say you know, connect with at least five people a day who are your target clients. Follow them. Hopefully they respond. Comment on their posts, right, so you can do this on LinkedIn too.

Speaker 1: 18:23

Linkedin gives you a limit on how many people you can connect with, but, like, you can still connect with them and not send a note. Comment on their posts, let them know that you're there. Then spend 10 minutes where you are actively using hashtags on Instagram those are more important than LinkedIn, say, but go outside of your circle of your feed, basically, right, and there are ways to do this on LinkedIn. Then from there, and then comment, right, like, comment, engage with those people, try to get them to follow you and you follow them as well. So now you're pulling other people into your feed and then spend 10 minutes writing a post Minimum. I mean, sometimes it takes me 45 minutes to do a LinkedIn post, but like 10 minutes minimum to write a post or to take a picture, whatever you're doing. And then finally 10 minutes to on your own feet connecting with people you already know, talking to them, engaging with them.

Speaker 1: 19:17

Oh, she also actually suggested finding people local, because that establishes a trust factor. So when you're looking for people local and you're engaging with people local, this like cool little bridge is, you know, the gap isn't as big anymore and a bridge is formed because it's like hey, I'm in this area too, you're in this area too. That was the best advice I have ever gotten and I still do it today because no matter what, whatever social account you're on and that you make your primary platform for marketing, they want you on that account, and showing that you're on that account for 30 to 45 minutes says oh okay, you know what. She's been on this account for a while.

Speaker 1: 19:53

Today I think I'm going to boost her post a little bit in this in people's feeds, and then you'll you'll notice people are going to start engaging more on your post and it's going to start being like the snowball effect. I think that consistency beats out the algorithm every time and of course, you're going to have ups and downs and some people are going to view stuff and some people aren't, and then sometimes you're suppressed for whatever reason. But it's still like to me that consistency is always going to help and that is what I tell my students and clients all the time. Five people connects a day, spend at least 30 to 45 minutes on the account a day and you're done.

Speaker 2: 20:26

Yeah, I love that. You know, I think a lot of people just feel like they have to spend way more time. So, you're right, it really it's not the amount, it's the intention behind it, honestly, like it's how intentional you are with it. I think you also have to have a really good awareness, I feel like, of your own boundaries, right, because a lot of people with neuro spicy brains, right, we're going to just get on social and we get lost and like, oh my God, it's been two hours, so be really strategy, almost it's.

Speaker 1: 20:57

Strategy, almost it's like strategic.

Speaker 1: 20:58

You have to go on. For me personally, I find the best time to do it is in my kids' lessons, like. So my daughter has like a 40 minute karate lesson and I might look like the least attentive parent there, but I am doing my marketing on LinkedIn then and I see a huge hit because LinkedIn is my strongest platform. But see a huge hit because LinkedIn is my strongest platform. But I see a huge hit when I cannot sit down at karate twice a week, two to three times a week and do the marketing. It's like everything goes down because they want you on there, they want you on there, they want you engaging. And when you engage and you talk to others, and especially those that are your ideal clients, not your peers then they're going to boost your posts and boost is a bad word because I think Instagram uses that as like a paid thing, but like they're going to take your post.

Speaker 1: 21:43

They're going to promote your post to the right people, if you're engaging with the right people. And that's where it gets mixed up with the peer stuff. Because if you're just doing like communicating with your peers on social and writing posts that they're like, oh yeah, that's kind of interesting, that's cool, but it's not going to lead you to money unless you're trying to build a monetized community in the future, then you have to focus.

Speaker 2: 22:04

You got to focus and be strategic about what you're doing on social media 100 percent and, yeah, using your downtime, quote unquote, like when you're doing something else. Like, yeah, you have to be there, you know, waiting for your kid, but you don't have to actively be watching them. You can, you can definitely be, you know, doing something else. Like that, I think that's a that's actually a really great strategy. I don't have that anymore because my kids are all grown, but when they were little, that was definitely something that I took advantage of. So I was like, okay, well, we got to be here for the next hour, so I'm going to try and get some work done while I'm doing it.

Speaker 2: 22:44

I wanted to touch base for a second because, yeah, we're not necessarily talking about a particular platform here, but I wanted to kind of just segue for a second into LinkedIn because I don't talk about it a lot here and that's because I don't use it a lot. I don't really you know what I mean. Like it's, it's, I'm on it, I will dabble. Like it's definitely not something that I have leaned heavily into and I know that a lot of my especially even if you're like a photographer and you're shooting headshots, especially corporate, you should be over there and so, whether you're an entrepreneur or a freelancer like. It is a very different sort of platform. What are some of the ways I know you mentioned to be engaging so that you can actually have people have your back and be boosting your stuff? What are some maybe out-of-the-box strategies that you've used on LinkedIn that have been successful for you with respect to finding these ideal clients or having them find you?

Speaker 1: 23:39

I think one of the advantages of LinkedIn which I love is the ability to put in links and make it easy for people to click on it. That said, I do want to put in the caveat that LinkedIn will not show your post to as many people if you put in a link. It's like common knowledge, but to me that's worth it. If I have some people sign up for my newsletter via the link, but it doesn't see as many people, but I get three, five signups, sometimes 10, 15, depending how well it does, just because of one post. Like Instagram makes that so difficult Like, right, like you're in your stories and you got to click on the link or you got to go to their bio and they really just don't make it easy to find out about you right, like and what you're doing.

Speaker 1: 24:16

But in LinkedIn, I think that's one of the huge advantages. I would say cold pitches on LinkedIn. I mean, yeah, there's an art to it, but I think that's one of the best places that I, even just building relationships, have done really well at and I've had clients sign up for my group coaching program through just meeting them through LinkedIn DMs and chatting with them. I mean DM strategy has totally changed right, and I think people can tell when it's something that's like automated.

Speaker 1: 24:48

I'm not saying AI, but like if you have a system that sends an automated message, like people can tell now, and so I do have something that automates messages by making very, very pointed, that makes sense, like, so I make sure that, like my system is also quite good, so it's like it will only send a message if you match like criteria in your profile, otherwise it's not going to send a message, and that has helped me.

Speaker 1: 25:11

then take that burden off and then I can communicate with people. So I think it gets a bad rap sometimes because people are very braggy in a different way from Instagram. Instagram is very highlight reel, right Like. But LinkedIn is for business, so you're going to be surrounded by people who are like I did this for a client and I helped them increase their revenue. And when my client did this because of my suggestions or my work, we found that all these things happen to their screenshots and you know all that kind of stuff. It's less like.

Speaker 1: 25:40

I think when I, when I struggle with Instagram is like you are the face so much that I struggle with that, I can see why it would be great for photographers to showcase their business. I also think, like in LinkedIn, you do have to be a good writer to a certain extent, because they still prioritize writing over visuals. I just saw a stat the other day that LinkedIn's still kind of struggling with video. I think it will eventually get there, but you still have to have that hook on top and then expand it and then really read it and there's like all these different flows. Right. There's like waterfall format that helps the mind read. There's like these certain hooks that you need to have.

Speaker 1: 26:18

I fought against that waterfall format for so long and what that means for the audience. If you're listening, not watching, this is like you have a line a certain length and then the next line will be a little bit shorter and then the next line will be even shorter still. So it's a staggered look, but it helps the brain read it. The thing is you're breaking up a sentence, so when you're not used to it, you're like wait, what? Why can't they just put this all on one line? And I thought it, but then I noticed my engagement went way up. I post went way up. When I use that format, because that's what people like, I think off topic. I could keep talking about LinkedIn.

Speaker 2: 26:51

No, I love that though. I think that that was really valuable because it plays into the storytelling, which is kind of important, no matter what platform.

Speaker 1: 27:00

we're talking about a personal story, not even a client story, but personal story that talked about like you and like the emotions and pulled on the emotions Right and then like the ones that did the least. Best are the ones I just text now, which is a shame, because that's why I got into LinkedIn originally.

Speaker 2: 27:24

Yeah.

Speaker 1: 27:24

It's not to post pictures of myself. I've noticed like. So I got over my fear of posting selfies and now I do it almost daily on LinkedIn. I just take a picture of myself and I put it with the post, because I know it's going to reach more people.

Speaker 1: 27:35

I hated it. I hated it in the beginning. I can't even tell you, oh my God, the first selfie I took I was like, oh, I can't do this, I can't do this. It's just so self-gratuitous, like who? A selfie of me has nothing to do with this post, right?

Speaker 2: 27:47

Yep, I know it's so frustrating. This is something I hear from so many photographers, creatives in general, like why do I have to be out there, like I don't, I want to be behind the camera or I want to. You know, I want to be behind my desk writing like I don't want to do that and sadly, you know it is. That is sort of like where we're at with all of that.

Speaker 1: 28:06

But you know why, renee? It's because I think marketing has shifted so much in the past five years that people are connecting with a personal brand yes that you have to have that in your now, and the way you do that is by posting these selfies with a post.

Speaker 1: 28:19

That makes no sense on LinkedIn, at least for me, right, because I realized like people want to connect with me, notice the shift in agencies, with freelancers, in corporations, in companies. The CEO is all of a sudden out there posting more and getting pictures of themselves out there, and it's the same all around the board. People don't want to connect with a faceless company anymore, especially Gen Z. They want to know who you are, what's driving you, what you look like, and connect with you in that way. So that's my theory.

Speaker 2: 28:46

No, absolutely no. Everything has shifted. I mean, I've been on social forever. Instagram, as soon as it was invented, I was on it. I've been on every platform. Literally I'm just an early adopter, like I'm going to get on it and just see what it's like, and some I say, some I don't, but they're all like they're. They're different they're. You know, each platform is different, but each one of them it is important to be that word authentic. We've heard it, it's overused blah, blah, blah. It's like a buzzword now. But there's a reason why we use it, because it is like, even on LinkedIn, that's interesting that that is also there like a photo of you, just a selfie with the messaging, we'll get more engagement.

Speaker 2: 29:31

You are your brand, right? Like this, this age of hiding behind a computer, it doesn't work anymore. Like, that's just not. It doesn't translate into getting clients, it doesn't. People want a shortcut on like well, who are you Like, tell me a little bit more about you, right? And so if they put a face with the name, literally, that will just make that shortcut so much faster.

Speaker 2: 29:48

And it is something that we sort of have to, we have to work through. Like I'm not saying you have to be out there. You know, every day, all day, like, yes, there are ways to make your nervous system feel good about doing it and it's a there's a way to make it work for you. I'm a big believer in that. But if you are running a business and you are trying to make money at this business it's not a hobby You're going to have to put yourself out there. You're going to have to desensitize yourself to some of that stuff, right, because there's a reason why it works. And TikTok is the same way Like. I've been on TikTok since 2019.

Speaker 2: 30:24

Obviously, this is a very different platform, but it's the same idea. It's the same idea. That whole the waterfall storytelling thing it happens on TikTok. It's just in video. There's a reason why these things work for us psychologically, which is sort of the whole gist of what we've been talking about is little psychological cues that make your target client feel seen, so that you don't have to do so much work, so that by the time they get to you, they're already basically on board. That's what I want. I want, by the time somebody books a call with me or emails me about a session like whether it's a coaching client or if it's a photography client I want my content and my website to have converted that person.

Speaker 1: 31:03

Exactly. You don't want to hear no, you want to hear yes, everyone wants to hear yes and you want to feel like you're going to vibe with them.

Speaker 2: 31:08

Exactly, and so that's why all of these little things that we've been talking about matter so much. I just want to make sure everyone gets that because, like, just make your life so much easier If you can just do that work on the front end. And a lot of times, like, once you start doing it, then it gets automated and then you get into a habit and then it's part of your brand. It makes everything so much easier.

Speaker 1: 31:29

It's like, okay, by the time they book that call with you, they already have a sense of they feel like they know you and that's the best thing to hear when they're like I feel like I know you because of that post you put on, because of your Instagram account, because of your podcast, whatever it is. You want them to feel like they know you already, Absolutely. I know, because then they're more likely to say yes and make it work, no matter what.

Speaker 2: 31:52

It's the best, I love it. It's like, oh, when that happens, I'm like, oh, yeah, okay, things are working. Yeah, I want to like just dive real quick into we've been talking about strategies a lot but what even brought you to this work Right, like, so I know you, you did have a corporate background, so what was that shift to corporate, to coaching, to the podcast?

Speaker 1: 32:14

Like, yeah, it was corporate to freelance, to coaching, and it was corporate started. I mean, I started freelancing before I really got my first full-time job. I was in college and I just thought freelancing was like side hustling and I was an executive assistant and I started getting really frustrated. I was always in the office when I had a lot of people traveling and if you know an EA life, it's like, yeah, I to email and phone, but I was like I don't really need to be here, Like everything's on my cell phone, I can work remotely. This is like pre COVID. This was 2012, 2013. But I still was like, let me just see if there's work from home, jobs Newsflash we're not much out there. That was not a thing. But I stumbled upon freelancing and setting it up as a business really to actually make it your full-time income, Like before. I just thought of it like back then there was something called Odesk which was like a precursor to Upwork. There we go.

Speaker 1: 33:08

I think that's kind of what I've been using before, just like projects here and there, just making a little extra income. And I saw that you can make freelancing into a full-time career. And I saw that you can make freelancing into a full-time career and I thought that's really interesting. But I have to find my own clients. Oh God, no, that's really stressful. And so I like put the kibosh on that, found another job then, was bored again and I was like you know, I have so much in me I could try different things. So I started freelancing with the goal to make it a full-time job, and the reason why was I was going through a lot of pregnancy issues and the company I was in was not very supportive of that. I reported to a male who had no kids and no wife, no pets. He was very proud of this and if anyone's gone through pregnancy issues, you just saw a lot of doctor's appointments and I had two failed pregnancies, the second one being really, like you know, genetic testing a lot, the whole thing and it was rough and I had to keep making up excuses and at this time I was like I don't want to feel like I always have to ask, to go to the doctors and make up excuses and constantly be like telling them lies for fear of losing my job. So then I said let's try to make this freelancing thing real and make it a business. So I registered as business huge mindset shift, huge.

Speaker 1: 34:18

When I actually registered I was like, okay, well, I'm going to try and make this work. I advertise copywriting, social media management, general VA work, executive assistant freelancing I think it was like customer service because there was a lot of need for that. You know, credit cards gave me a decline, people's products I just threw myself out there and then I started really buckling down. And this is where I was buckling down and it was like social media management, copywriting and executive assistant. And then, as time went on, I got more and more referrals for the executive assistant. But it was getting to the point that I was like I need to make the decision with my job. So I still had some copywriting, social media management clients at that time.

Speaker 1: 34:56

But I ended up talking with my husband, we went over the finances and I quit my full-time role, making $20,000 less than I was with the freelancing, but now I had eight hours a day. So I started growing it and I had these dreams of being a digital nomad. I got pregnant the first month I was freelancing full-time, and I had these dreams of being a digital nomad. I got pregnant the first month I was freelancing full time and this one stuck. And so I've never digital nomaded, except for COVID for a little bit.

Speaker 1: 35:25

But what ended up happening is like I just grew my income so quickly and the reason why was because of my strategies and the fact that I was running this as a business. I wasn't running this as an employee, and that's a big difference. I see, when people come to me and they say like I'm applying to these jobs, I'm like why are you applying? That has its place, but that shouldn't be your only way of getting clients. Like, there are different ways. Okay, like you know, I had a lot of moms, a lot of mom friends, like how are you keeping your kid at home while you do this? Like how much are you making? And I was like at that point, 90,000. And it was 120. And then it was 150.

Speaker 1: 35:57

And people were like you don't have a team. I was like, nope, I'm just figuring it out and raising my prices, but using good strategy. And then I had someone say like, do you have a framework for this? And I was like I don't know. But then I started thinking about it seriously and I was like, oh, I do. This is all very deliberate. Like everything I do has a strategy and a framework. Let me start teaching this.

Speaker 1: 36:18

Then I did like a beta group coaching session where they had to listen to me talk 45 minutes a session while I did slides to see if, like, the framework worked. And they did not pay me much, it was like 10 weeks, but then I had all the slides and then I created a course out of it. Then I used the course as a curriculum for private students. I no longer sell it as a course and use the course as a curriculum for private students. I don't no longer sell it as a course. And then it just started to grow Right. And then people started, you know, referring to me. And then I opened up earlier this year my group program, which is more a weekly subscription like a weekly. You come and go whenever you want, you don't have to stay. And then it's just like the coaching really grew. I still have two freelance clients that I keep. I don't know if I'll get rid of them, like there's always that question in my head. But I know I'm also like financially secure enough in the country that it happens.

Speaker 1: 37:01

It's not the end of the world, but that's my basic story. Coaching just kind of grew organically, but I find such joy from it and I love to be. I don't want to say love, but it was okay to let go of freelance clients as coaching group, because I just love helping people. There's nothing more satisfying for me than to someone say I 3X'd my income based on your strategies. It's like I'm literally making a difference in people's lives, like that's an amazing feeling as you know as well.

Speaker 1: 37:32

You just say wow, I've changed someone's life.

Speaker 2: 37:35

No, it's huge, and I also did not know that I was going to love that that much.

Speaker 2: 37:39

You know what I mean. I fell into the coaching too, because people were asking me how did you do this? How are you making so much money as a photographer? Blah, blah, blah, and I was like, okay, yeah, there's a framework I can teach you. But in doing that, I found out very quickly that it had so much to do with mindset, which was like my first love, cause I have a degree in psychology, so I love psychology in general and just like getting into like the deeper parts of things. Right, so there's nothing better to me Like yeah.

Speaker 2: 38:05

I love when my coaching clients come back and say oh my God, I had the biggest sale I've ever had. That's amazing. But what I really love is when we're on a call and like light bulbs go off and they're like that was a huge breakthrough, like mindset wise, and they put all you can I can see it happen now. It's like it's really, really cool and all the pieces just start making sense and they're like oh, okay, that's, that's that deeper part of it. It's almost like a combination of therapy, because I am not a therapist, like I'm not like licensed to be a therapist, but like I think there's always like a little piece of me that will always like okay, but let's go deeper.

Speaker 1: 38:45

Yeah, and I just had that last week. Like I have this probably like a sleeper client, someone that like joined my program, my weekly program, and didn't have high hopes for her. I hate saying that, but you know I was a little bit like, hmm, that'd be interesting, she might quit right away. She has had the best mindset change, asked to be an affiliate, like amazing, absolutely amazing, right, and that made me, just just gave me so much joy to have her. See, like you know she's, like you know we really are our own worst enemy.

Speaker 1: 39:15

Why am I so afraid of people rejecting me? Like I'm running a business, I'm trying to make money and I was like you get it, you're here, welcome, welcome to being a business owner and not an employee, right, and my goal for her I would love to see her Like she actually ended up going out and getting a job, not during the program, but before our program started, because she couldn't support herself freelancing. Yeah, so I really really hope that, like through my methods, and what a success story that would be if she would be able to quit her job.

Speaker 2: 39:44

Yeah.

Speaker 1: 39:44

I don't know, I don't know if it'll happen. And, like I, I still have trouble sometimes distancing myself and oh, I'm distancing myself and oh, yeah, yeah, like, get that not my responsibility, I can only do so much, yeah, but I I think that would be so cool, like I hope.

Speaker 2: 39:56

Yeah, I know I love, though I love that too. They got to do the work, but it's so great when they do like really, truly, it is okay. So before we wrap up, I always like to kind of dig into a little bit of. I know we're talking a lot about strategy, which I absolutely love like I could talk about this all day Love, love, love the marketing, psychological strategies. But I want to find out too, like, how woo are you Like? What kind of you know? What kind of part does that play in your life, if any? And just like, where are you at with anything magical unseen?

Speaker 1: 40:27

Yeah yeah, I'm a big believer in magic and miracles and, however you want to label it, I think my journey with more the magical aspect, the woo aspect, began really when I was struggling to conceive my second born. I kind of stumbled upon, like, the manifestation. I'd known about it because there's a lot of talk about entrepreneur circles sometimes, you know, and I didn't understand the extent of course, like someone who's not very well read in the topic or well knowledgeable in the topic, I just thought, like you wish for something and it comes true. Like, and it's interesting because I was using manifestation techniques for my freelance business before even knowing what it was Like.

Speaker 1: 41:11

When people would ask me what I did, I just said I was a freelancer who worked in social media or copywriting or what it was Like. When people would ask me what I did, I just said I was a freelancer who worked in social media or copywriting or whatever it was. Whatever I thought they would need, I would be like I'm a freelancer who does this, never told them about, you know, having a corporate job or whatever, and I just kind of lived that and I didn't realize how important that was in the process. But then when I understood it more and began really getting into energy healing manifestation. I have the best energy healer. She's so amazing.

Speaker 2: 41:38

Oh, that's awesome.

Speaker 1: 41:39

When I damaged my leg once and I had a flip meniscus like a bucket handle tear. If anyone knows what that is like flips your meniscus.

Speaker 1: 41:46

She did energy work virtually. So she asked me like make sure I'm lying down and sleeping, preferably. And she's like I'm gonna go in at like 11 or 12 and even if I try to stay up, I I fall asleep as soon as she starts working. It's virtual, it's crazy, yeah. Anyway, she called me the next day with the like she's like I, I don't know enough about the anatomy, but there's something flipped in there, there's something flip. And I was like okay, thanks. I was like it doesn't really feel that much better, just slightly. And then I got the MRI back and they were like you have a flipped tear and the meniscus is flipped. And I was like that anyway.

Speaker 1: 42:17

So I started getting energy healing and manifestation and I'd been struggling to conceive my second born for about three years. At this point I had gone through like some of the IVF process, the pre-IVF, and I was getting the IVF drugs the next month. And so I remember it was May and I was going to start May 25th and I thought you know what? I've been learning a lot about this manifestation. I'm just going to like go balls to the walls and just like see what? Sorry, excuse my language.

Speaker 2: 42:41

I'm just going to go like.

Speaker 1: 42:43

I'm just going to just try everything I've learned and see what happens. So every morning I got up and I imagine first of all that whole month I lived like I was already pregnant, like I can't even tell you as someone who's been pregnant, you know like my breasts were sore and I literally believed that once and I remember being like oh wait, no. And like it was so vivid in my head. Every morning I got up, I meditated. I would imagine that like the embryo was growing inside of me. I did these fertility yoga practices with this woman on YouTube called Yoga Yen. Totally recommend her. I did novenas, so I pulled in some Catholic like novenas are prayers that you do every day.

Speaker 1: 43:24

Yeah, yeah, so I I pulled in novenas, like I don't care where it's coming from. I prayed every day. But most of all, like what was so important about this is after learning about it I realized like I just lived it. I lived it like it was possible. And I remember a week before I was going to get my period, I did a pregnancy test. I was so sure and it's a negative. And I was like that's all right, I know what's going to happen. And then the IVF clinic called me and they said you need to start your drugs. Let's go through like the process together on the phone. And I said okay, and they're like you got your period today right, like, or you got yesterday or something like that. And I was like actually I haven't. And I was still like pretty like sure in my head but hadn't actually tested. And they're like, can you test? No, we're not going to give you you shouldn. And I tested it and it was positive. And I was like I knew it, like like I've already been living it.

Speaker 2: 44:13

I love that so much.

Speaker 1: 44:14

It was the most amazing process. Now the thing is, have I replicated that success? Not yet, but knowing that's there for me and knowing that I made it happen is like okay, I can do it. I think a lot of it has to do with your energy. Like I was like pull in, like what do I have to lose?

Speaker 2: 44:37

Well, like you said it, really you pulled in all of the pieces, like there's. I think that when people kind of start dabbling in it, they yeah. At first it's like, oh, I just need to think about it, or I just need to say affirmations, or I need to just meditate in the morning, whatever. It's actually like you said.

Speaker 1: 44:54

Stepping in to that version, right and using what the universe gives you Like. So the universe gave me this yoga person on YouTube and so I did those every single day. It's not like just wishing, it's like action as well, but listening to what the universe is giving you God or whoever you want to say.

Speaker 2: 45:11

And taking action on that and really and there's a piece to it too that I think is a really big piece of it that a lot of people have a very hard time with is that you actually even went in so far as to feel the embryo growing right, like healing it, like feeling it in your body. So many people and we're talking about pregnancy here, but we can talk that you could replace that with, you know, abundance or like what anything in your life that you would like to quote, unquote, manifest. I think a lot of people get to that place and they are too afraid to fully go all in, because what if it doesn't work Right?

Speaker 1: 45:49

And you don't want to be let down, and there's always like that little something's holding you back and I remember reading about that that month before I tried everything. It was like you have to a hundred percent, like feel like you are already there and like it's all in. And that's why I just remember running across the lawn and being like, oh my, my breasts Cause like when I'm pregnant. I wouldn't do that because I didn't like how sore my breast would be and I was like, okay, no, but it's not.

Speaker 2: 46:12

But I like fully believe that yeah, yeah, and that physical feeling it in your body, like Dr Joe Dispenza talks about all the time, like that's this whole thing. So you gotta feel it in your body and that is a real, that's a, that's a you gotta train yourself. Well, some of us, more than others, can do it Like, and I love that you do have the proof of that because, yeah, it doesn't matter necessarily that you haven't like replicated it so much as, like you, you have probably in many small ways, right, but I used to keep like a whole list on my whiteboard of like little things.

Speaker 1: 46:43

Like once I kept saying how much I wanted to have s'mores. I just kept saying like I just feel like s'mores, but we didn't have a outside fire pit. And two days later I got a text from this guy that I like, literally, is my daughter's dad, that I rarely texted, and he was like hey, we're going to have an outside fire pit with s'mores tonight. Do you want to come over? And I was like that is awesome, like little things. I used to just keep a running list because I was like this is so magical, yes, it's so magical.

Speaker 2: 47:08

And see, when you notice those too, that makes a big difference, because then your reticular activating system in your brain is going to start looking for them. Because you've activated it, you're like, oh okay, so what else can I look for? And you can play with it too. Sometimes like, especially if I'm feeling like not particularly in flow, right, everybody goes through times of like feeling in and out of it, and so something simple is to just be like okay, I wonder how many light blue cars can I see today?

Speaker 1: 47:37

And it's just like yeah, that's a big one in the manifestation world, Like how many when you're standing out look for something simple, right, you know?

Speaker 2: 47:46

just to kind of prove to yourself that this works, because some people like, okay, yes, all right, you know, and it's okay works. Because some people like you're like okay, yes, all right, you know, and it's okay. Well, where am I focusing on that? Like, what am I actually focusing on? Am I focusing on where I want to go and who I want to? Be or am I focusing on like where I was, and yeah, so I love that story, though.

Speaker 1: 48:03

Thanks for sharing that. I have so many, I can just look at my whiteboard and be like and then this happened, and then this happened. So again it's like I know I've still got it, but like maybe I've not been driven enough to do the big, big thing.

Speaker 2: 48:17

Yeah.

Speaker 1: 48:18

And that's not even like the wrong word, but like you really do have to want it so much.

Speaker 2: 48:23

And there's also that level of I think, when it is something big and something like really, you know, like a big leap sort of thing, I think there's definitely that inner fear of success. Even that can happen, right Like. And even those of us like I've never really felt, like I've had that, but if I really look at like, if I'm really honest with myself and sort of like dig into it a little bit, I'm like, okay, I can see that there might get overwhelmed, like a lot of people say I want my business to be at 1 million or 5 million or whatever next year, and then they start thinking like, oh, but what would that mean?

Speaker 1: 48:56

I need to hire all these people, and then I would have to change my strategy and I would and like that kind of holds you back because instead of knowing it'll all work out and you'll figure it out as you go.

Speaker 2: 49:18

And like that, that's all worked up in the little minor weeds and the details and very common, yeah, okay, well, yeah, we could talk about that all day, but it is a big piece of it for sure. Okay, so tell people where they can connect with you, where you like, like. Is it LinkedIn? Is it Instagram? Your website Like?

Speaker 1: 49:24

I'll list everything below, but yeah, so LinkedIn is definitely where I'm most active and respond to everything. I do have an Instagram account too, so LinkedIn, you can just find me, kiri Mohan, and then Instagram is the Kiri Mohan. I'm not as active there, but I will find you if you DM me. My website is kirimohancom. And then, if you want to take a listen to my podcast, it's Freelance to Freedom, and I just have bite-sized lessons, strategy, all about strategy on how to hopefully increase your income and work less hours so that you can have more time doing what you love, and so every lesson is focused on one thing about business and your freelance business. So, again, that's Freelance to Freedom. If you wanna do that, I'm kirimohancom for my website.

Speaker 2: 50:09

Perfect, yeah, I'll link those for everybody too. So thank you so much.

Speaker 1: 50:12

This was really awesome, all right, thank you. I really appreciate the time. It was fun.

Speaker 2: 50:16

I hope you guys learned a lot from that episode. I think there were some really good, valuable takeaways. But really just I want you to be thinking about how you can pre-qualify your clients better. Whether you're a freelancer or creative entrepreneur, you're on your own business, whether you're still in corporate, or whether you're a photographer, how can you let the outward facing pieces of your brand do the heavy lifting for you so that by the time they do reach out to you, they already know they want to be a part of what you've got going on? And I think that there's obviously a lot more strategy that goes into this.

Speaker 2: 50:52

I mean, this is something that I talk about extensively inside of one-on-one coaching how specific we can get with your branding and with just everything about what you do. The more intentional you are with it, the better payoff it's going to be in the long run just truly so. I know it feels like a lot of work at first and it can even feel pretty daunting and confusing. So reach out if you need help with that. I'm always happy to dive into that with you. It's one of my favorite things to do and I think that it has a lot to do with just who you are and I'm always saying that your brand, your business, is going to be an extension of how you feel. If you're not feeling good, if you're feeling chaotic and you're feeling stressed and you're struggling with some of these things, that is going to show up in how you present that brand and how you connect or don't connect with your target clients, your dream clients. And I also loved that we dove a little deep into manifestation, because y'all know how much I love talking about that and I love that Kiri shared about her dabbling with it and just seeing such an amazing payoff for it. So if you are struggling with trying to create a bigger, better life for yourself, hopefully that was also a little inspiring for you.

Speaker 2: 52:17

I have lots of other episodes that dive more specifically into how to do that work and I know I don't talk about a ton of it on the podcast in every single episode, but there is always a piece of that, because that is just literally who I am, and I am a huge believer in manifestation and your energy and that you get what you are, not what you want. So how can you be the most you you can be? How can you live your highest self every day. That's a lot of the work that I do inside of coaching as well, so it's a combination of that strategy and mindset. I know mindset gets thrown around a lot, but it's really, really important because it really can feel very isolating and it can feel very scary to do what we do.

Speaker 2: 53:09

There's no guarantees in what we do. There's no guarantees right In what we do. It doesn't matter how successful your business is, right, how much money you've been able to make over the last several years. Anything can happen. And so I don't say that to scare you. I don't say that to you. Know, make you anxious about what if this goes away tomorrow.

Speaker 2: 53:31

I say that because what we do is very brave and if you're an entrepreneur, photographer, you own your own business. You're a solopreneur. A lot of us are. It's a really scary brave thing to do and it can feel very isolating. So that's why community is important and why working with a coach can be so impactful, because we all need, we all need to push, we all need inspiration, we all need to be reminded of our greatness. Okay, so I hope that my podcast does that for you. I hope that just being in my world does that for you, because I want you to feel your greatness. I want you to feel how successful you are today, right now and however that looks for you. So go out and have a great rest of your day, rest of your week, do something good for yourself. Love you, bye.