Speaker 1: 0:00

Why photography? Why is that the medium you have picked to creatively express yourself? Because on our side, yes, we're looking for technical precision and it's good that you might know how to shoot everything. But I always say, if you're trying to be everything to everyone, then you're no one.

Speaker 2: 0:15

Welcome to Tried and True with a dash of woo, where we blend rock solid tips with a little bit of magic. I'm Renee Bowen, your host, life and business coach and professional photographer at your service. We are all about getting creative, diving into your business and playing with manifestation over here. So are you ready to get inspired and have some fun? Let's dive in. Hey, welcome back to Tried and True with a Dash of Woo.

Speaker 2: 0:42

I'm Renee Bowen, your host, and today's episode is going to flip the script for anybody who's ever wondered why they're not getting booked for the brand work that they dream about or trying to break into that industry of commercial or brand photography.

Speaker 2: 0:58

But we also dive into just some really amazing advice for creatives in general, because today I'm joined by Karen Williams and she is a keynote speaker, a course creator, and she's also the brilliant mind behind Black Visual Queen. But what makes Karen different from most voices in the photography world is that she's not a photographer. She's a photo editor and a decision maker, and she's been in the room literally with the people who decide who gets hired and why they get hired. So she has a very unique perspective and she's here today to pull back the curtain on what actually matters when it comes to shooting for brands, building a presence that gets noticed, how to get hired and making your career sustainable, not just busy. Y'all are going to love her, so let's dive right in. Hey, karen, thank you so much for being here today. This is going to be such a fun conversation and a little different than my norm, so I want to just kind of dive right in.

Speaker 2: 1:57

So you've got a lot of insights and a lot of interesting advice for us photographers, but you yourself are not a photographer, so tell me a little bit about, like, your journey, what brought you to where you are now and how you sort of got into all of this.

Speaker 1: 2:12

So I kind of quote unquote became the family photographer while growing up. So that's where kind of my love of photography kind of came into and took a class in high school, like right when I was graduating, and fell in love with just the process and my heart was always within fine art photography. So you know, naturally I was like, okay, I'm going to go to school, not understanding what being a photographer was at that time, like it was just like, oh, I'm going to go, I'm going to take pictures, I'm going to sell my fine art for $10,000 a piece. I'm never going to have to work a day Not understanding just the fine art side of it is a more. It's like its own kind of beast and that's of how do you create art. But then it's commercial viable for people to want to buy.

Speaker 1: 3:06

But when I was in school I loved going for my BFA and MFA. They teach you basically the technical stuff. So when I graduated with my BFA I still kind of didn't know what to do because they didn't really tell you other than being a photographer or being assistant or studio manager or teacher, like you know, what else do you do with the screen. So I decided, okay, if I'm going to be a teacher because at this point I kind of just knew I liked photography and I liked taking pictures. I just couldn't do the hustle. I was very shy, I didn't like. I did street photography and took pictures of buildings. I did portrait. It was like, get away from me, I don't want to talk to people. I don't want to talk to people, I don't want to have to meet people, I just want to be by myself, go pick up a 35 and go run through the street when no one messes with me.

Speaker 1: 3:52

And so, even when I was just studying for my MFA and it was still more theory and just technical stuff and just really honing of like developing my own visual eye I still didn't know what I was going to do until I did an internship, went back to the UK and did an internship at a custom publishing house which basically primarily worked with European airliners magazines. And that's when I discovered oh, this world of, oh, you could be a photo editor or photo producer, where basically you're not necessarily a photographer but you're helping, you're still part of the team of helping to create the visuals. And then, plus logistics, which I love, and that was my jam. I was like, oh my gosh, I found my career because I could still be in the world of photography, I could still create I'm just not necessarily the person behind the camera and just figured it out, one Google search at a time and that's kind of like this, getting that momentum snowball effect of like, okay, I got my internship at Austin Monthly Magazine, then I got my first job at Sildon Living and then ADRP and then now here like in tech world of like Square Masterclass and now Netflix.

Speaker 1: 4:53

So just slowly understanding and that's kind of my motivation and my passion of why I wrote the book of like the photo hustle, because just taking these lessons of things that they don't teach you really in school, and understanding oh, how do you have a successful career, how do you manage your finances, what is a contract? All that kind of stuff where I kind of had to learn and apply. Like I didn't sign my first NDA until, like, I worked at my first tech company and I was like what's this? I don't understand what that is. I don't, I guess.

Speaker 1: 5:20

So I'm just going to so that's kind of like in a nutshell of like kind of where I've been for, like over the past, like 15 years.

Speaker 2: 5:29

Okay, yeah, no, that's really interesting to me that with a BFA and an MFA, you didn't like cause I didn't do that, right Like so. I am a portrait photographer. I love working with people, but I tell photographers that I coach all the time. Yeah, you need to know what you're doing, but this is a people job. So, yeah, definitely that level. So I love that little distinction there. But also, like, I'm self-taught, right Like so. I got my degree in psychology and then came to it later. So I don't have that background of, like, going into a formal education for photography or any of the arts like that. But I would assume that at least in the master's level, that you'd be learning a little bit more about, like you said, the hustle, the business, like how you actually.

Speaker 1: 6:12

that's so why I think it's getting a little better, but again it's. It's just insane. They're having this on TikTok. It's been this debate with BFA programs for actors and all that stuff going on right now. It's the same with photography.

Speaker 1: 6:25

I love my teachers. I'm a nerd, so I didn't mind going to school because I'm a learner and I need to get that information and absorb it and I would tell photographers you don't have to go into debt, you can be self-taught. I know so many photographers who are like I was a doctor, I hated it and I picked up a camera and here's my career. But again, trying to find places where you can understand the business side, because I think one of the issues is a lot of my professors who I loved, were not in the business and especially in the industry of brand, commercial or working in the industry itself. They were more fine art and they were doing it as an art form, for a passion, versus someone like I'm from the ad world or I'm from a major corporation or brand. And to give you that information, because even with the book for all my self-taught photographers, I always say self-taught photographers have a leg up sometimes versus like people who graduated. Because when you kind of pick up the camera, you kind of have to learn real quickly. Ok, what do you want to be doing, what do you kind of want to ultimate? And then you're starting to kind of train in that and at least you're getting a type of knowledge and training versus where, if you go to school, you're kind of it's like nebulous and you're kind of like I can experience all this stuff and it's not like time sensitive usually versus like self-taught. I got to get this off the ground, you know really quickly. But again they would be like go to this workshop or maybe it's very loosely of like this is how you put a portfolio together, but not understanding how to sell yourself to the clients that you ultimately want, or understanding first who you are as a photographer. I'm going to sound like a broken market, like I'm always like no, you're white because they say I wish this was taught more. Know your why, understanding what you ultimately do.

Speaker 1: 8:11

So you want to be a portrait photographer? Okay, great, what kind there's so many things. Are you going to go into lifestyle? You're going to be black and white. You want to shoot celebrities because those are all different, like ball games of, like how you're pitching yourself and how you are creating work. Who are the clients? It's almost like I always tell photographers when they come to me we're not going to get to the fun stuff first, we're going to get to the unsexy part of it's called market research. Okay, you want to be a food photographer and you want to shoot for all the fast food things and especially talk about? Okay, I will review their portfolio. I'm not coming from my side of hiring and I'd be like, okay, great portfolio, where's your tacos? Where's your Mexican food? Because you're coming to people where nowadays, where there's more photographers, versus jobs.

Speaker 1: 8:52

I have to present you to a team and they want to see social proof that you can do it. Cause the budget, we don't have time to be doing research shoots. We want to be assured that you know how to handle the type of like again, you want to go and go to Victoria's Secret but you have no lingerie shots or any personal model or something like yes. I love your fashion shots. And I'm not saying that you can't get hired if you don't have those things, but nowadays people want to see that visual proof.

Speaker 2: 9:21

Yeah, that makes total sense. Ok, so I want I talk about this a lot too. I want to touch on the why you you just mentioned it really quickly. That's a really big piece of my coaching as well. It's like a foundational thing because, again, people come to me too with whether they're self-taught or not.

Speaker 2: 9:36

I mean, I, I, you know I work with photographers who have gone to school as well but there's always this side of it's not even just the business. They might even have like a decent understanding of like okay, is this essentials that they need to do, but like that marketing piece is really really hard for us creatives. Like just in general, I have found across the board, as I'm sure you have seen too, because you're this artist and you're a creative and you want to go out and do, but then at the same time, it's like, okay, well, this is just a really expensive hobby unless I figure out how to, you know, make some money in this. So this marketing piece, I really believe, too, that it starts with this. Why a deep understanding?

Speaker 2: 10:15

And I always tell people like you've been living it. It's just about us taking out this highlighter and like highlighting it and being very intentional about what that is. So I want to like ask you what you do, cause I mean, I'm coming from like the portrait world, mainly right, and I work with creatives of all kinds, but mainly portrait photographers. With that in your world and what you do, because you, you essentially are the person pulling people in jobs, right, how do you know, first of all, like when you're looking for looking at photographers let's just say for work, for for you know, a campaign, um, how can you tell they know their? Why can you? When it looks, cohesive.

Speaker 1: 10:54

It's like it's hard to spring to put in a thing, but when you look at a website, when you look at a portfolio piece, when you look at a piece of art, even like a t-shirt, you know, just put yourself in that place of when you're trying to find something and you're like that's it. That, versus like, ooh, this is not good quality, this is not you. Everyone can know what's good and bad, and for me it's like even if I'm not like a fan of the work.

Speaker 1: 11:18

If you have like a cohesiveness to your work where I understand your point of view, I can still appreciate it. I might not be like this is not my top key and I'm not going to hang it on my wall, but you see it, you can't put into words, you just see it. And this is why when you say of knowing your, why you're preaching and speaking my language because it is not taught enough when you're just kind of picking up the camera, you're just learning technique, you're looking at, you know people and you're trying to emulate. And it's good to emulate and be like figure out the lighting and stuff like that. But I would say you need to remix it. And who are you? What is your unique visual eye? And I always say this is why you need to know your, why and who you are as an artist. You need to know why photography? Why is that the medium you have picked to creatively express yourself? Because on our side, yes, we're looking for technical precision and it's good that you might know how to shoot everything, but I always say, if you're trying to be everything to everyone, then you're no one. And this is why at Harpware, we are on our side. We get a creative brief and we're always trying to find photographers that are going to match it. And it doesn't mean you go and copycat because you don't want to be the cheap version of someone else. But again, you know, we're just like. We're fans too. We want to look at great photography. We want to see artistry in your work.

Speaker 1: 12:35

Photography is an art. I will die in a cell. I'm team photo. People will like undervalue photography, but they want it. They want to cheap out on it. I get this every day where they're like hey, we want the Mona Lisa, like here's 5 cents. And I'm like here's 5 cents worth. Okay, here, get your mom to take a picture. Oh, you don't like it? Yeah, cause as a photographer photographers, listen you should be charging your worth because you are providing a skill and art. We're not looking for someone.

Speaker 1: 13:05

Like I always say, almost everyone knows how to use a camera. Not everyone knows how to take a picture and at the end of the day, if you are just in it for, like, I just want to make big bucks that's what they come to me with. Like you know, and I want to make a lot of money You're going to die, you're going to die. You're going to die Like the people who are on top of the game. When you see, when you're saying like, ooh, that's it. There's a passion by it, because you cannot just manufacture that 24 seven of creating beautiful work and being able to see the light in the, in the shapes, and then there's a passion behind that crap. It is hard work, but the payoff of this, that end product, and there's so much truth to like.

Speaker 2: 13:45

When I go into like this why and purpose work with clients, we always sort of like kind of go into and I always tell them like very much like a Simon Sinek girl, right, it's like okay, that's kind of why, like, let's start with, like, your legacy, your pet, like just in general, your photography is just how you express that. Okay, but we're going to get specific about it. But, like, taking even photography outside of it, what are you even about? Right? Because, like, we live in such a saturated world like social media, everything we're like inundated with ads and everything everywhere. So it's very hard for creative, spicy brains to stay in their lane, like to really hone in on what this is and like stand in the confidence of knowing, like what this is about for you, really living that passion and, you know, like letting it sort of like ooze through you.

Speaker 2: 14:50

I really believe that that is why marketing is so hard for so many of us is because we're just grasping at straws at that point and hoping that, oh, I can be this person you know for that one, or I can be this photographer for that person. It's like no, no, no strong sense of you, your brand and your why has to come out of you, and I know you harp on this a lot in the book and you even say a lot about like okay, you see photographers getting passed over all the time, not because they're not talented, but because they're not prepared, they're not polished and they're not priced properly, and you touched on that a little bit. But I want to kind of dive more into that, because this is also something I see a lot of how photographers are like don't they don't feel confident to?

Speaker 2: 15:34

charge what they need to be charging, what. There's so much competition and all of this. Let's talk about that for a little bit, because I can see how it is on my side in here. You know the portrait world and even in the headshots and things like that, but where you are it's a whole different sort of world. You're working with bigger brands, bigger budgets, things like that. Why is it so important for photographers who want to get into that line of work to really make sure they have all of those pieces dialed in, including the price point?

Speaker 1: 16:06

Because, again, you get like one person's impression and I always tell photographers remember there's usually not just one sole person doing the hiring versus like maybe there's a celebrity or high list talent or you know an exec to be like I just want to work with this person and then that's what we're doing. Usually we are pitching you to a team and so if you're coming to me, I might see a diamond in the rough right and I know you can do it. But trying to, if your website is looking raggedy and it's like broken links and it doesn't make sense, it's going to be hard to sell you or pitch you to other people where they know oh, I've worked with this other photographer and look at how amazing how they're presenting. They may not be the best person, they may not be the best photographer, but because they have presented well, people are going to call them like first or want to work with them first, versus maybe you. And so what I tell photographers? Like okay, we take a chance on you and then you're going to come with me with a day rate of a $10,000 a day Something's not commuting, because I know I work with photographers who charge that and you look at their, their work and what they produce. It correlates and before you're even thinking about what your price point is.

Speaker 1: 17:17

This is why I have a whole chapter in the book. You have to understand your finances first, understand how much. What is that minimum? What is that number where it's like you're breaking even? You're starting there and then multiplying up from there. But first you have to understand your expenses. You need to understand how much income is coming. What are like? You know the equipment you're reading out like all that stuff before you're even starting to try to price, because I I always want for times to be empowered, because in the brand world some companies might be like okay, and I always say a correlated to the economy. Where the economy is good, companies are spending. They're like then the economy, you know okay we're having a rough at it.

Speaker 1: 17:57

And then we're like I want to look at the accountants coming, like I'm looking at every line. Where's this receipt? Why do we have to have it from the brand world? So I always say for photographers, it's like you need a charge of work, but understand, where are you at first, talent-wise, if you feel like you're. If you're not there, you keep going, you keep mastering your craft.

Speaker 1: 18:19

This is why you know your, why, because, like I always say, kind of piggybacking off of, like you know, of that foundation, knowing what you want to be doing, it's like take money out of it but you still want to do photography, because if it's no, then you're not going to survive.

Speaker 1: 18:34

Because the ebbs and flows of this business, on this side, when thinking about a price point, when you get to the point where, and again, the brand might be like okay, cool, we. When you get to the point where, and again, the brand might be like okay, cool, we'll take your day rate, and the brand might be like, no, this is how much we're paying. So if you understand your finances and know that baseline, say you get the dream gig of like okay, beyonce, but you know that you're going to take a loss but you understand that when I photograph and I can put it in my portfolio, that's going to get me gigs and get me more clients that I can charge at the rate I usually would be charging and that's worth it for you to take the loss versus, like, oh, this other gig that you see all these red flags and then everyone's scope creep and they're micromanaging your death and you're like, no, that's not worth it.

Speaker 2: 19:17

Yeah, no, for sure, yeah, you have to weigh those.

Speaker 1: 19:21

And there's no precise like calculate. I wish I could tell you like every there is no, because other than like when I'm working in publications and editorial side there's usually around you can kind of find like rate sheets and like what people like in the minimal and stuff. But again, they're not only your work and licensing, because when you get into brand usually people want buyouts and then you kind of have to do some mental math. It's almost like you know from my side. Sometimes we're encouraged and we can share like this is our budget, this is what we're looking at, and then you're you're in negotiation and then sometimes brands are like here's our day rate, send us an estimate of what you think. And I that's why I kind of have in the book where I take, an approach of when you get that kind of thing, when you, after you asked all your questions to try to gauge like what are you covering?

Speaker 2: 20:09

What am I covering?

Speaker 1: 20:10

And all that stuff right, kind of price it up, what can I? How can I get this job done at the quality, at bare bones? And then on the other end of the spectrum, okay, if I could have all the bells and whistles and then come in the middle, because then you have a starting point where, okay, maybe they're like, okay, we have that budget, okay, cool. And then you know, okay, boom, I have enough to do it. Or they might be like, oh, okay, our budget is this, so you know what you can take out and still do a good job and see if you can meet there.

Speaker 1: 20:36

So that's kind of how I approach it, cause, again, every brand is different. But understand that if you're not asking the questions you know up front of, like you know what is the budget, if they can give you one, what is being taken care of and all that, so it gives you more foundation of base to make a good estimate. So I always tell advice for a job would be the diligent Sorry words this morning, and know that sometimes we cannot start the conversation.

Speaker 1: 21:01

You have to do it Like you have to email and prompt, and sometimes we email to do it Like you have to email and prompt, and sometimes email me this offline like, oh, okay, let me just send it off and we can get the conversation you know going. But don't be afraid to be proactive and don't be afraid to be like asking questions. I think a lot of photographers get scared because, oh God, it's my dream client, but they can be literally fleecing you. But if you understand, okay, yes, they're fleecing me, but I get to shoot this major thing that if I put it in my portfolio it's going to get me attention with other clients where I know I'm going to be taken care of. Maybe it's worth it to you. That's going to be individual to each photographer.

Speaker 2: 21:37

And those questions are really important just across the board. I mean, like even in our world too. You know that can be a really big piece of it, especially with, like you know, when we're shooting like branding for like a small company, things like that, right, like, so you have to kind of like lead with, like okay, well, you know what's your budget and hopefully they at least give you some parameters. Yes, exactly, usage is a real big one in your world and a lot of people who also do like even headshots and branding, so like can you speak to a little bit of just like some insider info real quick, because I want to get into the website stuff, because, like, if you guys have not seen our website and you really should like your website is so bad, thank you to my web designer, catherine studio seven 70.

Speaker 1: 22:19

I highly recommend her 100%. Go to her. She's amazing, I would say. Always in the licensing side, from my experience, most brands will want to have a buyout because they're not going to want to do the back and forth Right. So you just have to make sure that when you're pricing I always say again, think about human nature. We all do it, we all want to deal, but making sure it's fair to you, where you can live with it, and I think what scares a lot of photographers are you willing to walk away, and that's what gets people, when you're in a scarcity mindset of like, realize on our side we usually are respecting negotiations back and forth. I had an experience working with a colleague and it was for a cover and they sent the contract and then, like two seconds later this thing was signed and I'm like if you would have read that contract you would have known this was not good for you.

Speaker 2: 23:06

Yeah.

Speaker 1: 23:06

You signed away so you could tell like, ooh, because they're eager. And it's like they see, oh, this is major publication. And it's like, well, you know, and I'm like y'all read the content and don't be afraid to be like, hey, what does this mean, or what. Or have someone else read it? Or bounce, bounce back and be like I see this, I'm good with this, but can we change this, can we change that?

Speaker 1: 23:27

And again, you may get pushed back and we always go on our side and like that's why we have legal teams and they'll tell us like we can make that adjustment, but this is a hard no. And then you as a photographer have to decide are you willing to accept it or not? And that's an individual Cause. I, you know, I always say a lot of photographers will be screaming like you shouldn't do that, and I'm like you don't know what situation people are in or circumstances. Yeah, if you have a trust fund and you can write it out and stuff, okay, good for you. Some people might not and they'd be like, okay, this kind of sucks, but I really need to pay something which I always say I never wanted a photographer to take a job, just to take a job.

Speaker 1: 24:09

I always emphasize photographers because I was talking to a group of students a couple of months ago and a student asked me what should I do? I'm graduating and I say get a job. I want you to get a job first. I am pro-lap, like I've had like with my sales. I have a full-time job, I, I'm just me, so I need to be able to take care of myself and I rather photographers build on the side while being financially secure. Yeah, then, when you feel like, okay, I have a runway enough where it's like, okay, I'm going to try this for a year, okay, then go ahead, leave and then pursue it, knowing that there's no shame. You can always go back to a nine to five job, but again, that's.

Speaker 1: 24:46

I say it's always an individual decision, because I say I don't know your situation. So it's like, yeah, this is why you have to go back to knowing your whys and your values.

Speaker 2: 24:53

Yeah, you got to really start a strong foundation of knowing and also like knowing where you want to be Right, like even you don't have to like project five, 10 years out, but like, okay, a year from now, like what exactly would you like this to look? So you have something to work toward I think is important to you. But no, that's all really good advice. And as creatives, just in general, I think you know like my son just graduated with a bachelor's in guitar performance from Berkeley.

Speaker 1: 25:20

Okay, he's an artist.

Speaker 2: 25:22

He knows he's like okay, I gotta keep working my, my, my job that I've got, you know, and you know, keep getting those gigs. That's just my husband's an actor, like a writer, you know, I feel like in my family it's just sort of always been like our way of life, Cause I'm a photographer, all of these creatives and it is. It can be like a really dicey life, Like it really can, and we live in LA. It's not easy to do this Right. So like it's one of those things where, like for me, when I started my business, I needed this to work. Like it was one of those things where I was like, okay, if I'm going to do this, like it needs to work, it needs to be profitable. It wasn't doing it just for the money, obviously, because I love it, but like I also wasn't willing to do it for free because it was taking time away from my kids, my life, all of those things, and so I had to really lean on, okay, like why am I really wanting to do?

Speaker 2: 26:13

this and how can I build it in a way that is profitable but also meaningful, you know, not just for me but for my clients, and I feel like not enough photographers and maybe you know, like you said, like kind of coming out of college or school, it might be one of those things where, like you really do need to take a minute. Take a minute and really assess, like where that, where you want this to to be in a year, set some small goals for yourself at least, but don't take that eye, don't take your eye off the prize is kind of what I always tell people Like how bad, do you really want this?

Speaker 1: 26:44

And that's why I wish like at schools. And this is why I always say I feel like self-taught photographers have like a little edge because, again, most of them go into it where it's like I'm making a whole career pivot and stuff like that. So I need to understand the business, I need to understand how to price myself, so you have that drive and focus, not saying like when you go to school you don't have that drive and focus, but it's like because it's like and again, this is why I love my school it's like all about experimenting and stuff.

Speaker 1: 27:09

And I think that's good for, maybe, your freshman sophomore year. But if you're going into it like I'm going to graduate with a degree, junior year, we should be talking about okay, what's your why? What are you ultimately doing? Not saying you have to be locked in, but say you want to be a portrait photographer Okay, what time Do you want to be lifestyle? Do you want to be fine art? Do you want to be shooting celebrities? Do you want to be shooting? Maybe it's nonprofit, maybe you want to go more photojournalistic, to start exploring that, and what does that mean? So, what are those publications or brands you want to be working with? What's the kind of work you want to be producing ultimately?

Speaker 2: 27:43

right.

Speaker 1: 27:44

And understanding how to get there, knowing that you can pivot, but you need to have a direction and a path. And then leading into then understanding, okay, say, I want to be a high-end fashion photographer and I want to shoot for Vogue and W and I want to shoot for Chanel and stuff like that. Then this is now going to be like okay, you have the foundation and framework. Now to then, when you were kind of going into, what you want to talk about next is website and what you need to be thinking about and how you're presenting to these brands, and that's a perfect segue.

Speaker 2: 28:17

And clients you want to attract. Yes, and that's why I think that this is like I've had. You know, I've had conversations before here on the podcast, you know, about websites and specifically SEO. But I want to really kind of dive into this, because you talk about this a lot. I'm a really big believer in this too, and I see portrait photographers, websites and like most of them across the board, they're just, they're sort of generic. If I'm being honest, there's not a whole lot of anything dynamic about it. You know it's more about like, trying to sort of like fit in and try and be what they think they should be. But you talk about this a lot, especially in your world too. But I feel like it's equally important in my world, like you've got to be, like you've got to have a dynamic website.

Speaker 1: 29:02

Yes, think about if I was using my example because I'm like, think about it. Like you have a busted toilet, you need a plumber. Now Plumber A. You go to their website. It's plumbing 24 seven. You see the Yelp reviews five stars. You see, there they have like a YouTube of like here's how you can do modern plumbing fixes yourself. You see their services. You see a phone number content. It all works, it all clicks. Then you go to Plumber Bee and you're like okay, I clicked this link, it's error 401. Oh, so you run a pizzeria and a you know acapella group and I do plumbing like two times a week and I can't contact you because the page doesn't exist. You know, just think about any service you're trying to get, or when you're trying to compare doctors or like stores or restaurants and stuff like that. You can go to it now and I'm not saying that.

Speaker 1: 29:53

I will say there's some cool mama pops and there's photographers, that, okay, you go to their site and you're like because they have a strong word of mouth and they've probably been in this industry for decades and they have that reputation that they can get away with that. But if you're new, this is why and again I'm going to sound like a burglar and we're going to go back to understanding why, who you are as a photographer, because I can say a lot of photographers get caught up in the aesthetic in a sense of it needs to be this First. It needs to have great work, because your work is going to be like this shining star and that's what's got to hold it. It doesn't matter how pretty the fonts are, doesn't matter, because if the work is not there, if you do not have a coherent, clear vision of who you are, like your visual eye, of how you, your take on, let's say, portraiture, it's not going to matter. Yeah, so, like I said, the unsexy part of okay, when you're understanding like I want to be in portrait and I will say I want to do high fashion, then do your market research. See first those brands and places and clients you want to pick up. Do a visual audit of like what are they putting out there, what are they liking, and stuff like that. Then go to photographers doing what you ultimately want to be doing. You're not trying to copy them. They're kind of your competition but kind of not. You're just going to see how are they presenting themselves. Maybe you see oh, I see a lot of them using this terminology. And again, keep in mind, your website is a living, breathing organism that needs to be changed. So once you get data points, you can change and see what's working for you.

Speaker 1: 31:17

But first, kind of start with that research of looking at photographers, getting the jobs and the clients you want and seeing what's working, not working, maybe what you like or not like. Going to your body of work first and then seeing okay, I have all this. After you have all the information, you calculate this is what I ultimately want to do. You can go and then audit your work and say, okay, these images are working and are representing what I want to be doing and the kind of work I want to be getting now. And then the rest, you know you take that off. I know it's painful.

Speaker 1: 31:47

Remember your website is a marketing piece. You can't get too attached. And if you get really attached and you're like I don't want to get rid of these pictures, maybe that's where personal projects come in, because personal projects can be personal projects. Or I tell photographers if you're really attached, just make a separate site for yourself, put it on that and you can look at it every day and you see it on a website, but it on a website. But you have to really think about the hiring managers or your client, potential clients.

Speaker 1: 32:15

Looking at your site is a marketing piece, so you have to avoid emotion to it. If I'm like I said, I'm working at Taco Bell and I'm looking for a photographer to pitch, I need I'm going to your food session. Okay, amazing photographer, let me see what I can pull out of the Mexican and tacos and nachos and stuff to show them like, oh look, they've also done this work for this company or they've done this personal project and this will be cool. You know what I mean. You have to kind of put the hat of your viewer and the experience and the first thing is going to be like does when I go to your site, am I wild? Yeah, and so this is where I go into kind of the four pillars of the website.

Speaker 2: 32:48

I want to talk about those.

Speaker 1: 32:49

When you go. First the work needs to be curated to who you're trying to attract and the kind of jobs you want. Then it needs to be easy to navigate A five-year-old should be able to navigate it. Then I need to know a location I would love to be, and it's not like it doesn't happen. Photographers get flown out to different places for specific things, but lately and kind of the trend is, can we work with someone local to save money? Then I need to have a contact email, not just a form. I always say your website shouldn't be causing friction. How long does it take someone to find what they need to do so with?

Speaker 2: 33:29

the contact.

Speaker 1: 33:30

Get a contact email that I can highlight and copy. Don't do that. I get it, Like especially for females of like creepers and stuff like that and I get and this is why I say you don't have to have a necessary phone call, Cause I'm not calling first, I'm emailing before we're having a call.

Speaker 1: 33:46

I'm not that forward or texting Like we can get into that later about like etiquette of how you can contact because you'd be surprised, but have it where I can just highlight it and then I can just put it into the field to be able to reach you. Now, you, I always say you can have that form, just have an email and a form, but just don't have a form because people are like I don't have I know it's just extra work where people could be like oh, I can just highlight this or you make it linkable where it automatically opens the email that's chosen and it makes it easy. Like I say, your website should make it easy for people to see right away who you are and what they're wanting to look for. And then, like some other tips is like I always kind of preface, like have an overview page where people can just see right away, like and this is your like appetizer, where these are your A plus plus images.

Speaker 1: 34:35

I always say think about it If this image, this image, should be able to stand alone on a cover and a billboard without explanation. And then people are like Ooh, I want to dig in more, let me go into the galleries. Yeah, right, but the ultimate goal is you want to make it as easy for people to get around and find what they need to get and the question to ask is your website creating friction for people? Because if it's like slow loading times, like I get impatient, like I'm like everyone now is like look, I don't got time, unless I really have to stay in this and find this image or something, or to show.

Speaker 2: 35:10

No, I mean, like you can tell now, you know within a few seconds, easily right Of hitting somebody's site and I'm very big on this, I see a lot of photographers that you know on Instagram. Let's say, right, Well, they'll follow me. I'll kind of like go to their page and just kind of see, and I can't tell you how many times I have gone to click their link for their website. I can't tell from their Instagram or their website where they're located. There's not one location on any of this, None of it. And I'm like, what are you doing?

Speaker 1: 35:41

People I interview for my book. Again the same thing we need to know where you're located. Yes, you can work worldwide, I get it, but sometimes we cannot send someone from Italy to LA unless it's something special. I'm not saying it's not, we people are never, are not flying things, and I see it all the time but it's like first people are going to be like who can we work with locally? Be cautious, a lot of people like will want to be like by close. So like I work LA, new York, I work LA, miami, hawaii or whatever Montana, idaho. Sometimes I'm like oh my God, you work out of.

Speaker 1: 36:18

Please be aware, when you put this is where you are located or when you work local, we are not in our minds.

Speaker 1: 36:24

We see that, as we don't have to pay for travel other than, like you know, if you're taking an Uber, a Lyft to the shoot or something like that, but we're not paying for a flight, we're not paying for you to stay in a hotel, that's signaling to us that you have a place and you know you can get there as easy and you pick up the costs on that.

Speaker 1: 36:43

That's how we're thinking when you're putting that. So I say be very careful when you're saying I work Hawaii, that's good, so I could send you to Alaska, and you're in Texas and you're going to pay for that flight. Where are you going to live? You know we're not expecting those charges to hit yeah, not saying we wouldn't pay for it Sometimes, sometimes we still do, and stuff like that. But the first glance of this is why it's important to have your location and make sure you're accurate is that we're not expecting that to be part of the budget, because usually what gets cut for the budget first is travel. If we have to make some cuts, no, that's a really good point.

Speaker 2: 37:18

Okay, so, as far as the website goes, we talked about those four pillars. I think I agree with with all of those, and I love that little piece about adding the email, even on the form, because you're right, like, when you're adding friction, you're creating these roadblocks for people. You want to make it as easy as possible for people to get in touch with you. I mean, like, how much do you want to work? Right, like. So I see, I see that a lot too. Like there's no way to get in touch, there's not enough contact, there's nothing listed. A lot of photographers even will be like I don't want to be in my DMs on Instagram. Okay, that's a personal choice, I get it, but you also, like, you have to know your client right.

Speaker 2: 37:54

So for us, for me and I'll just kind of like segue just for a second into that, just for listeners who are like, let's say, working with high school seniors like I am, or even like wedding photographers you got to know your client. If they're finding you on TikTok or finding you on Instagram, you need to be findable on those places. Your website a hundred percent needs to be there. Do not skimp on that, but you do need to be available, at least whether it's an automated message that pops up and says I don't check these very often.

Speaker 2: 38:26

I check them every 24 hours. Please hit me up here. This is my email. Like make it easy for people to find you to book you. Just in general.

Speaker 1: 38:36

And the bounce back, like even for wedding photographer any genre. Think about it Like and especially going back to price point. If you're going to charge these high prices, yeah, okay, I better be able. People are going to stalk you ever. People are going to stalk you. I know I do when I hire coaches and I've hired 10 000 plus dollars coaches and stuff like I stalk them. I'm like I'm looking at your website, I'm looking at your socials oh, you got a podcast. I'm listening to all that just to make sure we're on the same vibe. And check. Some photographers are saying like oh, your websites are going like no now there's some that are.

Speaker 1: 39:05

There's always exceptions there's. I always like. Here's an art on my side of like working with brands and editorial and the secret for I always say, brands are always looking for editorial feeling. Now for photographers as well, cause they want that real enough. Think that kind of face versus like what back in the old days where it was like this is commercial photography or brand you know, for photography, I would say it's like here's the thing you don't have to have like a fancy website. It can be very minimalist. Like I said, the work is going to carry it. Carry it because there's a photographer I know his website is a Tumblr page. It's just a scroll and he gets work and he worked for the top brands and stuff. But when you look, I met him and then you know, see his aesthetic, and that's another thing of why you need to know who you are as an artist, because for his aesthetic, it works for him. And if you know who you are as an artist, then you the website, kind of.

Speaker 1: 40:00

Again, I think a lot of photographers get stressed out or they put a lot, of, a lot of emphasis. Yes, the website is important. This is why I always say look at other photographers doing what you want to ultimately doing, or other photographers you admire and to see how they're putting it. Nothing is new and undestand. It's usually just the same kind of format. Maybe their navigation is horizontal versus vertical, but most of the time you have an overview page and then say you're a portrait photographer. Then it's like here's an overview page and then here's portraits, and maybe they're breaking it down to outside, inside or whatever Editorial brand or something you know like or you know hot, cold or whatever. How they interpret, like, how they want to present the work. But at the end of the day, I always say is still having that cohesive portfolio. Okay, yeah, that's holding this website together of why people want to reach out to you and continue and want to work with you.

Speaker 1: 40:55

So it's like even like that's what I say like in the space of wedding photography, like people are coming to you because they want to know your vibe, like, oh, your vibe like for my wedding. Okay, I'd come to your site. Oh, it's photojournalistics out. That's the kind of stuff we want and we're going to see more social proof. Basically, think of it like that your website and your social and stuff. People just want to see social proof that you can be consistent, and so that's very important for branding, of making sure that it feels consistent both ways and not just one-off, like you just happily made that. I want to make sure you can do that again pretty much 99% of the time, and again I always say as a photographer, you want to be hired for what you do versus a red flag of I like what you do.

Speaker 2: 41:36

Can you do a 180?

Speaker 1: 41:37

Like, say, like you're a black and white film photographer and like we'd like what you do, can you shoot color and digital? All of a sudden Like, no, you want to be hired and yes, when you're working for brands, yes, you're going to have to play in their sandbox, but when you look at the end product, it should still feel like 90% of you retouching all that stuff and brand stuff, but it's still still feel like 90% you. And if it's not worth it Now I always say you will have these step and repeat clients where it's like, paid by numbers, it's not your dad, but you know you can do it. But it's like you see that check it pays a mortgage payment or a car payment or something. You take those jobs. You say thank you. You just don't put it on your website. Yep, I get you.

Speaker 2: 42:20

You know I have a real quick little segue question and before we get into I want to kind of like, uh, in a minute dive into your company, black visual queen, cause I love what you're doing with all of that and I really want to dive into your mission there. But real quick, I'm very interested to know what you've seen on your side working with brands and large brands. How is AI imagery changing any of this yet at all?

Speaker 1: 42:44

I think again. Ai is not going away. So for photographers, you just kind of have to learn the tool and make it work for you. I don't see it right now taking over and you don't see like other than Coca-Cola, cause you saw what happened with Coca-Cola they got like roasted when they were like why did you hire? Ai is being used as a tool right now to like okay, I need an idea, I need to prompt it. Or maybe can you summarize this for me or on our site Like okay, instead of like creating a Pinterest board. Maybe when I'm going to a real set designer or someone who's sourcing, I could be like can you create something like this Iceland dystopia kind of thing. And at least I can give a visual of this is what I'm kind of thinking versus trying to find it, and it makes it just quicker. But I'm still working with humans. But I always remind photographers we have been using AI for a very long time. Photoshop.

Speaker 2: 43:34

Yeah.

Speaker 1: 43:34

Google search. When you pop in, it just automatically pops in what you're trying to guess, what you're trying to look for. That's like basically AI based kind of stuff that we've been doing. So I don't see it right now overtaking where we're going to get rid of the department, because people still and again I think this was like a huge boost with COVID of people want human connection.

Speaker 1: 43:57

People want to still see humans, because I see it all the time and all the socials people are like. When you look at Pinterest now and it's like I look at it, it's all AI generated stuff half the time and I'm like ew, I want to see something real.

Speaker 1: 44:09

I want to see a real fashion thing. That's why I'm pinning. So I was like maybe I want to buy it, but if it's AI generated it hasn't been made. So what's the point of that? I'm not. So I say don't be fearful for it. And again it's like genie is out of the bottle. I compare to when you know, when the auto industry like, okay, we're going to use robots, you still see humans on that factory line, right, you still see humans has to oversee, because what the robot breaks? Right, and it's not functioning I always say photographers.

Speaker 1: 44:38

Learn it, see how it works for you, like ai may be um useful for like those admin stuff, helping you to keep up with the emails and like accounting and stuff like that. Creatively play with it. Because I always say it's kind of like I caution remember when photographers, when we had that point when we went from film to digital and people were like, oh no, I'm gonna always, and then a lot of people got left behind and again people still use film, yeah, people use digital. There's there's a happy medium and I see how AI like kind of with the digital age. When I remember and this is like my MFA days, when digital art was breaking out huge in the gallery scene of people using it.

Speaker 1: 45:15

That's why I feel like for AI, but again, ai can't replace creativity, because I feel like creativity is still connected to your brain, cause even when you're using AI, you still have to use your brain to think about it, to input it and to understand how and work with it and finish it to get what you want.

Speaker 2: 45:32

Yeah, and it's being trained by a human right. So, like a lot of people, you know, you see that a lot these days are like oh my gosh. You know, like Chai Chibuji is like constantly, just, you know, giving me all these. You know, yes, yes, yes, I was like that's because you've trained it to do that. It's literally mirroring what you're doing and unless you train it to challenge you, it ain't going to do that. So, like that's. The other piece of it too is you can use it as a tool, like you're saying, to make your creativity better, to spark ideas, but I'm glad that you're not seeing it in ads at least yet completely taking over.

Speaker 1: 46:06

And to just just to add onto this you have to think about AI is not a shortcut. You still got to put work into it and what AI will get rid of. Ai will get rid of people who are mid and below, because, again, people will still pay for mastery. Okay, think about just the evolution of things, of you know. Okay, when painting was all the rage and then the first camera was made and people are like oh my God, paintings are gone.

Speaker 1: 46:29

No, it made paintings go up because people still wanted that craft and artistry of it. Now, if you are a craft painter, you're like I'm not paying for that, I could just take a photo, right. So for AI, like a lot of people are like oh, I could just use AI and I'm going to do. You're going to see real quick.

Speaker 2: 46:43

So that's why I harp on.

Speaker 1: 46:46

You have to continue to master your craft because people still want to pay for quality photography.

Speaker 2: 46:52

That's not going away.

Speaker 1: 46:53

It's just going to weed out people who are just wanting to stay mid and below.

Speaker 2: 46:57

That is such a good point. I remember like cause I've been around, I've been doing this since film days, like before digital came out, right Like. So I remember that switch over and people were like oh my God. And then the same thing happened when the iPhone came out oh my God, no one's ever going to like, no, people will still pay for master. I really really love that you brought that up, because not enough people really remember that Like it's, it's true, it's 100% true. There's things are going to come and go, some things will stick around, but people still pay for that mastery level and I'm sorry, but I really don't think that's ever going to change. And I also think that we should continue to evolve, because you got to keep studying.

Speaker 1: 47:38

Exactly so. It's like it's not going back into the, the genie's out of the bottle. It's not going back into the bottle. You just learn how to adapt it, you learn about it and you learn how it can work for you and maybe maybe AI becomes part of the process. But AI is not going to. It's again a lot, a lot of people, I think why they're freaking out? Cause they're like oh, everyone. I think it's more because now everyone has access. It's not like a subset of people. Now everyone can do it. But then you're going to see real quick where people want to say I want to cheap out. But then what kind of customers are you attracting now? Yeah, I don't see people right now like especially, let's say, for example, people in the wedding industry. I don't see probably brides coming. Can you just AI and make AI of my whole wedding?

Speaker 2: 48:20

Right.

Speaker 1: 48:21

Unless you're like an artist, armor guard or something. You're like I'm just going to do this, but no, I want photos, real memories.

Speaker 2: 48:28

Right, I don't want AI in my family and me.

Speaker 1: 48:31

Right, I don't want to be in my family and me. You know what I mean.

Speaker 2: 48:38

Yeah, totally Okay, I love that. All right, let's talk real quick before we start wrapping up. I want to talk about Black Visual Queen because I want to. I love your mission here to change the industry. So tell me why you created that, what sparked it for you and where do you see this going. And I just kind of want to make sure that we touch on all this, because I love what you're building for, like, this next generation of creatives.

Speaker 1: 48:58

I think for me, I started Black Visual Queen a couple of years ago, in 2023. I was at a career crossroad at the time and speaking with a lot of photographers and just being in this industry, you know, there's just a lot of gatekeeping, yeah, and it's not that, oh, I'm revealing like all these deep dark seas or anything, but it's just like this is this basic information that I think a lot of people just don't want to put in the time to just educate people and still feeling kind of frustrated, why haven't schools really caught up where? For me, if I had my dream school, I'd be like we're going to learn the basics of reading and writing and math, but then okay, we're going to learn the basics of reading and writing and math, but then okay, we're going to start applying that. Okay. So for, let's say, like, in math, we're going to understand how to do taxes. We're going to understand write a checkbook I was lucky enough that I took one math, a model of math thing before I graduated to understand here's how to write a checkbook, here's what loans are, and stuff like that.

Speaker 1: 49:48

Black visual cleaning for me is just bridging that gap of like real world knowledge and education of how we get it from school or just self-taught and understanding how to make it practical. Cause, like, I loved photography but I didn't my biggest frustration when I graduated I still did not understand what to do with it. I didn't know you could be a photo producer because a lot of people in the creative industries you know they just fall into it and someone just like, hey, you want to do an internship here and then you just continue up the ladder kind of like thing. I've seen so many people like I was on set and someone said here's a loop and go ahead, be in the photo department.

Speaker 1: 50:22

And then discovered how you could be these different things. So for me, my passion is just to open up those gates, provide a foundation to always listen to different perspectives and see what works for you. There is no like in my book I say there is no magical formula. I wish I could tell you do a plus you know this and B and it's going to equal C, because some people are picked up like Beyonce picked that. Tyler mature Boom, I just know because I was at masterclass when he was doing his masterclass and boom, his career soared. You know, probably after a year, like a few years, of just being in the industry, some people, like most of my friends, they grind it out for like 10 years or something and then they finally get one hit and then boom, the floodgates open. So everyone's, everyone's path is not linear.

Speaker 2: 51:07

No.

Speaker 1: 51:08

So I just want to provide a base of like for me. I always say have a strong foundation of just knowing who you are, what's your why, what's your like reasoning of being in photography, Okay, and then this is how you should be trying to present yourself. If you're trying to do and I always say what I love about my book is like it can go across different creative industries. I just did photography because, number one, there was no good book about the business from this perspective from my side yeah, it was always from photographers and that is a very nuanced thing. And one of the things that gets to my nerves is when I see photographers like you can make six figures and like, okay, that's very nuanced.

Speaker 1: 51:45

And first, is that after taxes, that you said that six figures and stuff and it's nuanced of what's your talent level and what niche are you in, because it can vary. So I always say this is why I'm teaching the basic foundations of building that strong foundation your portfolio. And then if you know your why, you know what you ultimately want to be doing, the brands you want to work with, then you curate your portfolio. It makes marketing so much easier because then you know you're speaking their love language. Now, again, on our side, it's getting smaller and you're dealing with smaller teams and so they might not get back to you right away or you remember it'll be a long time. Maybe you hear something. That's why you have to have that passion and hustle for this industry, because it's those and rejections.

Speaker 2: 52:37

Yeah, and I'm sure, like with what you were doing and you know, sort of like shifting this narrative, you also have had a very, you know, not just the unique perspective of of what you do and the the type of you know work that you do, but also being a black woman in this industry. I mean, I'm sure that's definitely been a journey that you know like because, like, there's so much gatekeeping just in general, but then there's gatekeeping within the gatekeeping, as far as, like you know, like you, you go down that whole sort of like minority bucket Right, like, yeah, there's underserved people in in our.

Speaker 1: 53:11

When I started, it was very few black people being photo editors. I didn't know what to be a photo. I shout out to rob um, a photo editorcom. That's what I discovered, that in 2008, and I've been following him ever since he was a former photo editor. So that's how I was learning how to be a photo editor. And again, I didn't know better. I just because I had the drive of I'm gonna be a photo editor.

Speaker 1: 53:33

And then I graduated in 2008, and that's when the economy tanked, and so that's when that's headstrong. And about four years later, 2012, that's when I got Southern Living. I just figured it out on the fly. I didn't understand.

Speaker 1: 53:45

See, this is again the frustrating of school, because if I would have known after I got my BFA oh, you need to be in New York, probably more or LA, where those are some hubs of, like you know, publishing I probably maybe would have got my MFA in New York. But I didn't know that at the time. So therefore I was fighting against. Back then you had to have like two to three years of experience to get a entry level job in publishing, wow. And so I was doing unpaid internships in in between, literally bringing my own computer just to break in, and then once I broke in just trying to figure out how do you go up this ladder, and so that's like the spawn of black visual queen, of like being like the mentor I wish I had, because even then people were kind of like territorial, like okay, I'll teach you this a little bit.

Speaker 1: 54:31

I got to keep my job, you know kind of like territorial, like, okay, I'll teach you this a little bit, but I got to keep my job, you know kind of thing. And so that's what all black visual is. It's just trying to educate and, you know, spread the wisdom. Yeah, Fill in those gaps. Power photographers you know, and let them know like we're human beings on this side as well. But again, you know, my main thing is we need your visual eye and I just want to help facilitate whatever dream you have.

Speaker 2: 54:58

No, I love that and you do that in the book as well. So you know you guys can definitely. I will link all of this in the show notes. I'll link her book for you guys. The photo hustle it's a gem for anybody who wants to work in photography, but even like just especially for folks who are like tired of vague advice and want some like real direction. And I also love how it's written. There's some visuals in there and it keeps our creative brains, you know, like interested. So I love, like the layout of it. I think it's just super well done and I know we could talk for hours about all these things. But before we wrap up, you know, in addition to the book, where do you like to connect with people? Do you want that? You know what I mean. If someone has questions for you, they want to kind of like learn more about you. Where do you want to point them?

Speaker 1: 55:41

You can go to my website, always at blackvisualqueencom. My email is blackvisualqueen. At gmailcom. You can on all my socials uh, it's at black visual queen. Try to keep as simple as possible, but, yeah, email me or like DME and all my socials on Instagram, on Tik TOK and and LinkedIn, that's. I'm also giving advice there as well.

Speaker 2: 56:04

Yeah, linkedin. She's loves the LinkedIn and you guys, we didn't even get into that, but there's a lot, especially in this world that she's in and all of you guys who are just like branding photographers or wanting to get into that kind of work.

Speaker 1: 56:19

Linkedin is like a really great source for that, because a lot of businesses I always say LinkedIn a lot of people are like we're poo-pooing and I got into it, like in during the pandemic. I was Instagram, just nature of my job and just being a photo thing, but I got into LinkedIn and again, a lot of opportunities for photographers happen there. If you show up.

Speaker 1: 56:39

And again, it's like being your brand and being authentic and I always say, when you approach, you know how I hopefully, approaching it, always go in the mass and the mindset of being of service and not like me, me, me, and not take, take, take. It's like how can I help you, how can I be of service to you? Because, ultimately, as a photographer, you are providing a gift, a service to help someone you know with a problem that they have and stuff like that.

Speaker 2: 57:06

Yeah, absolutely Okay, awesome. Yes, you guys go check all those links out below and thank you so much for this conversation, karen. It was so great to meet you and chat with you. Yes, likewise Thank you for having me Such great information, karen, thanks again for being here.

Speaker 2: 57:21

I really loved all the places that we went in this conversation and whether you want to get into brand photography, or you are already working in that world, or you're a portrait photographer or a creative in general and you're feeling sort of like the weight of the world, right, you know, things are getting cut, like she had mentioned. Things are changing, things are shifting and so, as a creative I mean I see it online, I hear it in my communities all the time people sort of like letting the weight of the world really sit on your shoulders. If that's you, I really hope today's conversation helped you shift that perspective, because I will die on this hill. The world needs your art. It always has, it always will. That's not going to change. If you look through history, the thing that gets us through the hardest times is art. Okay, there's a reason why you were called to be an artist. There's a reason why you were called to start the job, the career, the business that you have or you are dreaming about, and that is another reason why I continue to do this podcast. Right, I mean, I have one-on-one coaching clients. I work with group coaching clients. I also still run a full-time photography business, but I really love being able to sit with you guys once a week and bring you insights from all over the place.

Speaker 2: 58:49

Really, if you know anything about me, you know that I really hate to stick to just like one thing, because I do have a lot of interests and I love talking about photography here, I love talking about our business, but I also really hope that this podcast helps you see a bigger picture and expands your awareness a little bit that 30,000 foot view of, like what you really could have and what this life and your business could really look like, and to just not give up. Okay, cause the world really does need your voice, they need your perspective. I know it feels really hard and really daunting and really scary, but that's why you come to places like this to feel seen and heard and where you know you find your communities. And I really hope that you stay on your path, because if you were called to do this. There's a reason for it, okay. So take it one step at a time. Take it one small step at a time and you're going to get there.

Speaker 2: 59:51

Obviously, if you need help, you can reach out. You know where to find me and you can definitely connect with Karen as well. Go buy her book. It's really amazing that all these links for you are below where you can connect with her and with me as well. So I hope you guys have a fantastic rest of your week and go out there and create something just for you and be good to yourself. Love you, bye.