Speaker 1: 0:00

It really doesn't. I've had people succeed with a CO1, pixie set and Wix. You don't have to have the best platform. You don't have to redesign your website. It doesn't have to look perfect. I'm sorry, you just have to start.

Speaker 2: 0:12

Welcome to Tried and True with the Dash of Woo, where we blend rock solid tips with a little bit of magic. I'm Renee Bowen, your host, life and business coach and professional photographer at your service. We are all about getting creative, diving into your business and playing with manifestation over here. So are you ready to get inspired and have some fun? Let's dive in. Hello and welcome back to Tried and True with a Dash of Woo. I am your host, renee Bowen. Today I am talking with Danielle Johnson and you guys are going to love her.

Speaker 2: 0:48

In a world where algorithms are ever-changing and the future of AI becomes increasingly unknown, defy Creative Co. Which is her company, fights against the belief that reaching your ideal clients as a small business owner always has to be overwhelming, expensive and draining. Your time is precious and your energy should not be spent desperately seeking out clients who might pay you the bare minimum. It should be spent living your life that you've worked so hard to create and trusting your dream. Clients are going to find you effortlessly behind the scenes. So she has signature SEO services. She calls her signature service SEO and, and we're going to talk about that. We're going to talk about what her education looks like as well as her actual services, cause she does a lot of different things and, yeah, we're talking about SEO, but don't let that make your brain go offline.

Speaker 2: 1:44

Okay, like, I get it, it's not something that we want to really talk about as creatives, but here's the thing Danielle is a creative too, and she was a photographer for many years, and so she gets why we hate it so much and she gets how to talk to us about this in a way that makes sense. But also she offers some really interesting insights in today's podcast that you guys probably have not heard anywhere else, and I know you guys really actually need to hear it. So let's dive into this chat I had with Danielle. Hey, danielle, thanks so much for being here. We are going to talk about SEO today, obviously, because that is your jam, but I want to talk about it specifically for us creatives because you are also a creative. And I want to talk about it specifically for us creatives because you are also a creative, and I want to just kind of start there for a second. When did you realize that traditional quote, unquote traditional SEO advice wasn't necessarily made for us creatives, and what made you want to do this differently?

Speaker 1: 2:40

Yeah, that's a good question. I mean so I started out as a wedding photographer and a photographer myself. That's kind of what I got into in high school, and then that is how I started my business. I got my license to be a photographer and dropped out of college and just went totally full-time, like during COVID, which I feel like is a story for a lot of us. It was kind of a time where you either go all in or you give up, and I just decided to go all in.

Speaker 1: 3:06

For some reason, it worked out, thank God, but I was a photographer and I was honestly killing it on Instagram. I loved writing captions, I love planning content, but it was getting a little tiring and I started to notice, you know, the algorithm shifting and I'm never going to be one to whine about the algorithm because I know that it's a free platform and Instagram has given me so much. However, it is exhausting and kind of around 2020, I actually needed a little bit of extra income, as many of us did as photographers and creatives, just with the world shifting, and so I took a little class to become a VA and I immediately noticed that when I brought on photography clients, every single person had me blog for them and do their SEO, and it was something that I had a little bit of experience in myself, being a wedding photographer. I blogged for myself. I had taken some SEO courses and they were fine.

Speaker 1: 4:06

They like got me started and I'd kind of taken everything that I saw being recommended but for some reason, not everything was just clicking with my brain and the traditional advice was you know, follow this number, do these keyword research strategies, and it wasn't really taking into account my own goals, my own clients. I never really found that the general formula and the numbers you're taught take into account that every business is different, every person is different, and so when I started blogging for my clients and kind of realizing how impactful it could be not only in SEO, I teach with what's kind of called an SEO and approach, which I'm sure we'll dive into, but I've kind of coined that term and I love it and I feel like it's a really good representation of the approach that I've kind of taken.

Speaker 1: 4:54

Over the last five years I've written like 1300 blog posts for so many different clients and I've realized that blogging is about so much more than SEO. It is great for SEO and it is great for supporting every single stage of your sales funnel, and I just found that none of the courses or education I was finding really taught that it was just the SEO. And, as a wedding photographer myself, I didn't have a full marketing team or SEO team to really help me dive in. I didn't have the bandwidth to fully go in on my SEO. I just needed the bare minimum to get me results and that's all I had the time and the effort for. And so when I started teaching it and kind of creating some education around it, I really focused on okay, how can I get you results with the bare minimum effort? Because I know you don't want your whole life to be SEO and blogging like it is mine, if that makes sense.

Speaker 2: 5:47

Yeah, this is something I see so much, you know, because I coach photographers and all kinds of all niches, and it's a universal complaint really. Yeah, you know, and it's not necessarily like. I think that there's definitely like this I don't know if hate is the it's a strong word, I don't know if hate's the right word, but there's definitely an aversion to wanting to blog, right, and so like, for a long time, I've I've heard cause I've been in this industry forever I feel like. I feel like, anyway, I have heard from photographers so many times like, uh, you know, blogging's dead, it doesn't matter, and I've always just been like, no, that is absolutely not true.

Speaker 2: 6:27

But, to your point, so many people like I feel like that was just an excuse, A lot of people sort of like just took on because they wanted to believe it. Right, you know like, no, I don't want to do it, and that's really what it comes down to. Is what it comes down to is, I feel like it's a much more daunting task than a lot of people realize, that it is Like it's really not that complicated, right, but the SEO piece of it makes it feel like it is for a lot of people, it feels terrifying.

Speaker 1: 7:01

And when you compare it to something like Instagram or TikTok, which tends to feel a lot easier in some ways because, like for me, when I was really in the heat of my wedding photography, I was posting a lot of content, I had beautiful photos to post, I was good at writing captions and you would get that sort of instant gratification from being able to get a post up quickly, post every day, get responses to your stories and for me that doesn't happen as much now because it's all wonky, but it feels like you're getting that instant gratification of okay, people are seeing my work, potential clients are seeing my work, and all I had to do was post a little slide of photos and write a caption, whereas with blogging, I find that people hear it and then our brains immediately shut down. People hear the word SEO and they're like, no, fuck that. I don't know if I can.

Speaker 1: 7:47

Yeah, but it yeah, but that just seems like the least, the thing they want to do, the least, because you are just trying to keep your business afloat, you're trying to edit your photos, you're trying to serve your clients and if I'm telling you, no, you got to sit down and like write what you think is an essay like an academic level essay. You're not going to want to do that when you could just post a video to TikTok and it feels a lot easier and you're getting the immediate likes and then comments and saves, and so it feels a lot more daunting. And I've just done my best to really show people the value of it, because I think a lot of that comes with people not realizing the value that comes with blogging and SEO. It, because I think a lot of that comes with people not realizing the value that comes with blogging and SEO, but also just making it a lot easier and simpler and it doesn't need to be this crazy thing that takes you hours and hours to do and it's just not as difficult as people think.

Speaker 1: 8:35

Maybe I think yeah, as we make it out to be ourselves.

Speaker 2: 8:38

Yeah, for sure, and I mean you know that's kind of common right, like you just sort of make it bigger than it needs to be, because it feel like I get it. You know, most of us creatives have a lot going on in our brains and a lot like we are the solopreneurs Like you said. You know we're wearing all the hats in our businesses, or most of them at least, and this feels like the last possible thing that you want to do. But the results I mean, like you cannot deny the facts is that you know, and I've seen it personally, even just in my own, the more I blog, the higher I rank. Period, yeah, period, like it is literally like clockwork. It's like I always tell people it's. It's like telling the universe.

Speaker 1: 9:28

I and it's to you, it's totally. It's put it out there Awesome, and you have to do it in a way that's a little more intentional. Maybe unthought out that Instagram where it feels like you've been just post will and Ellie and it might go viral. It might actually that's. I don't know anything about Instagram strategy right now. I feel like I've fallen off the handle with Instagram, but with blogging it feels like going into it. It's a lot more of a proactive marketing strategy the way I look at it, because Instagram I'm kind of reacting to trends and I'm just hoping that something will get viewed and get liked, whereas blogging and SEO you're looking a bit more in advance and it is a more long-term game and in a world and an economy where we feel like we need the income ASAP I do too, I get it it just feels like so much work to be doing something that might not get you results for a few weeks, a few months, for years.

Speaker 2: 10:22

Yeah, and let's be honest, I mean most of the people that I work with and a lot of people that I speak to, photographers especially they don't want to be on social either. Okay. So, like you know, when they come to me and they're like, oh my God, I don't have clients, and I'm like, okay, well, what are you already doing? And I kind of go through that checklist with them Are you posting on social? What's your, your strategy, what's your in-person marketing, looking, looking like, what's your seo? And they're like, uh, I don't really want to be on social media. And I'm like, okay, well, you got to do something first of all, and I I really do believe that, um, I call it the trifecta right, the seo, seo is like king, um, and social media could support that with the same SEO strategy, by the way, because you don't want to reinvent the wheel, just make it easy. And then there's the in-person you know marketing as well, with SEO really leading the pack, like carrying most of that heavy load, because you can repurpose your social media strategy. If you already have an SEO strategy for your blog and you're already writing for your blog, you can easily just take that and run with it for social, and so it can be a lot easier.

Speaker 2: 11:39

But I want to touch on really quickly something that you talk about a lot and that I think is really important as well. You know, blogging is fine and dandy and getting it to rank is great, but it's converting. That is really where the gold is, and a lot of photographers are like well, I'm blogging but and I'm getting inquiries, but I'm not booking these people right, like so if you don't have like a high conversion rate and if your content, your site, your blog, isn't doing a lot of that work for you, then it is going to feel like you're beating your head up against a wall and like what is the point? So when you are going through, you know that with a whether it's like a done for you cause, you do like, done for you you walk people through it as well, and then you also have you know things that people can and we'll get to that in a minute like your blog Bible. When you're looking at converting like writing a converting post what are you thinking about there? And like what does that mean to you?

Speaker 1: 12:37

Yeah, that's a good question, and I feel like it's a part of SEO and blogging that people don't think about, because when you hear SEO and blogging, you think, okay, my end goal is reaching, you know, page one of Google rankings or page two, and then improving from there. And unfortunately, I just made an Instagram post about this the other day. I was like I'm this is going to hurt your feelings, but that's only half the work. I'm so sorry to break it to you. Once you put in all that hard work to get your blog post ranking, your website ranking, you still need to number one, get these people to click on the blog post, and you need them to convert from there. And so one of the main issues I run into, like you said, and the complaints that I get and the fears that I get from people, is okay, I'm ranking, I am seeing myself on page one, but I'm not seeing the bookings to go along with it, and obviously there's so many factors that go into that, one of the biggest being your website. And you know, unfortunately, if you have a great blog post or really optimized blog post, but your website isn't consistent with that, I can write you the best blog posts in the fucking world. But if your website isn't creating like a user journey and a client journey that's going to convert people, I can only do so much for you and that really sucks, because you do have to take a big look at the grander scheme of things. If you are having, let's say, a potential client land on a blog post and there is no call to action that they can click on, you are not directing them to go to a different page of your website after that, you're not showing them what to do or you're not spending enough time building that brand trust in that blog post, aside from just giving information. Why would they want to continue with you? Why would they choose you over another photographer who has the same exact blog post? Because, let's be real, the market is saturated. The Google internet world is saturated.

Speaker 1: 14:26

If you look up I work with a lot of Washington photographers and if you look up like Ma Rainier Elopement, you will see like eight of my clients all ranking on page one for the same things, with very similar blog posts, and the thing that's going to set you apart, I always tell people is you. And that sounds so cheesy and I know that's not like a strategy and that's going to set you apart. I always tell people is you? And that sounds so cheesy and I know that's not like a strategy and that's not black and white and it sounds really like cliche, but it's true.

Speaker 1: 14:53

And in a world of AI, in a world of people with increasing knowledge about SEO, when everyone and their mother can create an SEO optimized blog, it is your unique brand and your unique approach that is going to set you apart from the 10 other photographers who are ranking for the same thing. And so a lot of times I will see people writing blog posts that are just information, just research, and that is great, and information and value has a major place in blog posts. But if you are not providing a little bit of insight into your brand and what makes you different and your unique stories and experiences, your sense of humor, what you like, that's how people are going to create that human connection with you that then makes them say, oh, this person might be a good fit and I do want to continue this journey through their website, through other blog posts, to inquire with them. So, on the technical side of things, there are things you can do, like including more call to actions not just at the end of your blog post but near the top, because people are lazy and they might not make it all the way through your blog post. And I find that people you know you love your blog posts, I love my blog posts but the person who finds it on Google might just need a quick answer and they're not really going to read through the 2000 words that we wrote and put so much time into.

Speaker 1: 16:07

And so you have to be realistic about OK, how far are they going to scroll on this page? Where can I include call to action to make sure that, even if they only scroll through halfway, they are given some sort of direction to inquire or read a relevant blog post or go to my pricing page blog posts or go to my pricing page, and so yeah, like you said, getting it to rank is only half the work, and you do have to think about where am I taking people on the journey next to actually inquire and make sure that they are the right kinds of people for me, that they are able to self-identify through my blog posts, that we would be a good fit and you're not just getting random inquiries from people who are looking for information or price shopping and couldn't really tell if they were the right fit. And then you have to go through the whole process of emailing back and forth only to discover that you're just not right for each other.

Speaker 2: 16:53

Yeah, and that happens a lot, like I hear that a lot from people and that's one of the things that I try and help people clean up too. So I'm glad, like that's, that those are such great points too. So I'm glad, like that's, that those are such great points. You know, even as simple. It's sometimes even as simple as, like you said, putting in additional CTAs or adding them higher up on the page, like just in general, because I do also see a lot of websites and I see a lot of blogs and that's people think that oh, I'm just, you know, writing a blog or I'm just sort of like getting this, like you said, information and you know, giving people answering a question, basically Right, like, so that's great for content, but also, like, what is it going to do on the other side of that? And I really, really, really want my website to do all that heavy lifting for me. Like, by the time somebody reaches out to me, I really want them to be basically a yes, you know, I don't want to have to go through all of these back and forths, like you said, or even get on a call Cause. I'm sorry, but my time is, like the most valuable thing to me. I am not that photographer and I know it's a little controversial maybe, but I don't like to get on a consult right off the bat or a phone call right off the bat. It's always an option. I always leave it up to people, but I want to A get information to them as soon as possible, like as right before they reach out, like that's what that email is for, and I want my content and the things that I've written whether it is my blog, my website, my first email out to them, whatever. All that has to be very cohesive, so that, and easy, like I want it to be. I want it to feel easy for them and I want it to do a lot of that work for me. So that's a really good point, because a lot of people just feel like, well, if I'm just blogging and I'm just kind of putting some SEO keywords in there, then that's all I really need to do and I don't really need to pay somebody to do this. Or maybe I could just have Chat Chad GPT write it for me, and so I want to talk about that because that is a huge hot topic and look, I love me some Chad GPT, don't get me wrong.

Speaker 2: 19:13

I definitely use it a lot, but you touched on it just a little bit ago about how well what is going to keep you from standing, you know apart, what's going to make you stand out in this, in this very, very saturated market, and that is you. So, as good as AI is and as good as it's getting, it's still not you. And what do you see? First of all, because I know that you don't use it for your stuff and you've talked about that on your site, but, like, what do you see changing? Like, do you see like any new trends like starting to emerge because of this whole thing? How do you see this actually like pivoting and changing, even you know, more so as more people are using AI. What do you see in your world? Because, like, I'm not in that world, you know and I know that there's got to be some stuff that we don't know about.

Speaker 1: 20:12

Yeah, well, one of the things that I feel like I'm seeing very often and again I have mixed feelings about AI. I use it for my like tedious menial tasks in my own end. I never use it for my own client blogs just because I feel like people are paying me a high price for my like tedious, menial tasks in my own end. I never use it for my own client blogs just because I feel like people are paying me a high price for my brain and my human touch, and what I have been seeing a lot is blog posts that are just starting to sound the same. It's like Instagram. I feel like you can kind of recognize when a caption or a carousel has been completely written by AI, and I do use ChatGPT sometimes to like help me start out a carousel or kind of come up with an idea, but personally I always go in and edit it and make sure that it is actually something I would write. It sounds like my voice and I like to sprinkle little things in that do feel like my brand and like my personality, and so my big thing with AI right now is making sure that you're using it in the right context, so a lot of people will just have it fully, write their blog post and, while I understand it, I don't think that that's ultimately going to convert your clients. It's not going to ultimately help them identify again, like we were talking about, with your brand, with you, with your personality, with your humanity. And I think that in a world of increasing AI, that humanity and that connection becomes so much more important. And one of the reasons that I teach blogging in the way I do and I approach it in this way of SEO and is that AI might be able to help you optimize a blog post and get it ranking on Google, and we love that. That's, again, a huge step, and I was talking to a client about this the other day. We were talking about okay, so how, once somebody has gotten to my website, how can we make sure that we are positioning ourself with our unique brand and what makes us different and what makes us stand out? And she, this client I was talking to, loves fashion and a lot of her photography revolves around like style and editorial and magazines of recent fashion trends. And she was like okay, how fun would it be to write a blog post about the Met Gala and how you can use Met Gala outfits to inspire your bridal attire. And I just love this conversation because we were talking about, yes, it's great to have these super, super optimized blog posts, but you can also have these really fun ones that show off your brand and show off your story, and it's more than just about SEO, and so I feel like you have to have that balance in there. With AI, you can use it to optimize, you can use it to give you a head start, build an outline any of those like little tasks that you do find yourself getting stuck on. It can be a really useful tool, but you have to balance it out with context, with your personality, and make sure that you're not just sounding like the other photographer who used AI to write the exact same blog post.

Speaker 1: 22:57

And another thing I'm seeing a lot is people getting inquiries from ChatGPT. I don't know if you've experienced that yourself yet or if any of your clients have, but it's really cool. That is a really cool way for people to be using ChatGPT. It's basically becoming another search engine.

Speaker 1: 23:14

I see a lot of people wondering about how to optimize for ChatGPT, and essentially it's just Google. You're just still optimizing the same way you would for any other search engine. Chatgpt is pulling things from Google. You're just still optimizing the same way you would for any other search engine. Chatgbt is pulling things from Google, google's pulling things from ChatGBT. It kind of all goes back and forth.

Speaker 1: 23:30

And I do see a lot of people concerned about like the AI overviews at the top of Google, because I don't know if you're familiar with like SERP features and the little people also ask section and kind of the feedback snippets at the top, like a lot of my clients used to have that spot and now it's an AI overview and that is annoying and that is something that we just have to deal with.

Speaker 1: 23:54

But that AI overview still has to pull something from a source and if you look next to the AI overviews, it'll show you like the source and the websites it pulled from and you can still show up in that and so ultimately, long story short, I think that that humanity is the most important thing right now to be focusing on. In a world where everybody can do SEO, everybody can use AI, everybody can write information, it's about how you can infuse the little thing that makes you stand out and really speak that to your clients and brag about it. I don't see my clients bragging enough about what makes them stand out, because they think that their blog posts do just have to be informational, academic. You can include a funny image, you can include a GIF, you can include a quote from your favorite TV show, I don't know. Just show your clients what you actually give a shit about, and that'll help you connect with them right off the bat.

Speaker 2: 24:45

Yeah, that's a really big thing. I was going to kind of lead into asking you what are some of the mistakes you see people creatives especially sort of making when they're approaching a blog, and that's definitely one that I see happening just in general across the board. Like you know, photographers I don't know if it, I think it might be just creatives in general, but photographers are really not great about tooting their own horn, like people are like hey, I'm pretty awesome. Like you know what I mean. I think that it is the nature of being an artist. Um, I mean, I've seen it in non-photographers too, but artists in general, I feel like, are more sensitive, have spicier brains, are more susceptible to, you know, head trash let's just call it imposter, unconscious programming, stuff like that, which is all things that you know why I do.

Speaker 2: 25:37

What I do inside of coaching, but that is a really, really really big piece of it is being willing to and also knowing how to stand in that confidence without feeling really gross about it, like telling people like, and so what do you? What do you do with your clients when they are resistant to that Like? How do you ease them into? Like being their biggest cheerleader is kind of what I call it Like look, if you're not out there talking about yourself and and talking about how awesome this service is, like you're literally denying somebody. You, you know they're looking for you. So you have to be the one feeling confident, even if you, you know, at the heart of it, yeah, you might feel like, okay, yeah, of course I could get better. We all feel like that as artists. I think that you know, there's always going to be like a striving for excellence sort of thing in all of us. That's what keeps us going. But how do you, how do you work with that, with your clients?

Speaker 1: 26:42

Yeah, I think that one of the things I've run into a lot in my years of doing this is people, creatives specifically, who think that they have to know everything, have the perfect website, have the perfect strategy before they can ever publish a blog post. And I do the same thing. Like I was thinking about this recently, I'm trying to learn painting and I felt like I had to get the perfect supplies and watched a bunch of courses and do all this and that before I could, just, you know, sit down with a paintbrush and like fuck around on my sketchbook, and I feel like that is the biggest hindrance I see to people writing their blog posts, because they think they have to sound a certain way, they think they have to take, you know, neil Patel's SEO course and have a huge team to do all of this insanely complex strategy. But I've seen so many SEO results and blogging results with the bare ass minimum effort, and that's really what I teach is that you can publish an imperfect blog post. It's okay, like it doesn't have to be. In fact, nobody wants to read an academic essay when they're coming to read your blog post, to be honest, but nobody's gonna notice if you have a photo in there that you really don't love. I find that photographers spend hours choosing their photos for blog posts and while that is important, it's the least important part of your blog posts. Important, it's the least important part of your blog posts. And so when people hire me, I'm able to kind of like take that emotional part out of it and kind of create that separation because I'm able to brag on your behalf. I'm able to be a little bit more objective when it comes to the information we're supplying, the photos we're choosing, and so I find that people really just take a lot longer on the parts that don't need to be focused on that much, because it's a really great form of procrastinating publishing and they'll wait months until they have you know the perfect formula, every bit of knowledge they could.

Speaker 1: 28:33

When the longer you put off publishing a blog post, the longer you are putting off people finding you through that blog post, longer you are putting off people finding you through that blog post. Or even I like to say that even if nobody ever, ever finds you through your blog post, if it never ranks on Google, it's never going to be a failure, because you can still serve your potential or your current clients with it, anybody who comes to you from Pinterest or TikTok or Instagram when they land on your website. It wasn't through Google, but they are still finding this incredible library of resources you've built up for them. When it's your booked clients, like when I was a photographer, I used to send out like an email workflow, I think, every like month leading up to the wedding, and I would include relevant blog posts that I thought would be helpful at that time, and that's just another way to improve your client experience. Serve your clients above and beyond. Even if nobody found you through that, you can still repurpose it to Instagram content, to email content, to TikTok video scripts.

Speaker 1: 29:29

That's my biggest tip is that nobody's using their blog posts to the max. If you're sitting down to write this content, you should be squeezing the most you can out of it and just reusing what you already have, and so I find people just put it off for way too long because they think it has to be perfect. It really doesn't. I've had people succeed with SEO on PixieSet and Wix. You don't have to have the best platform. You don't have to redesign your website. It doesn't have to look perfect. I'm sorry, you just have to start.

Speaker 2: 29:56

Okay, that is such a great topic. I definitely want to dive into like two or three of these things, so I hope I can hold this in my brain. But like that was that's a really, really big piece of it is like, oh, but it has to be perfect. No, it doesn't. First of all, nothing's ever going to be perfect. That's why I always say strive for excellence, not perfection. Just do it, just get something out there. So I'm really glad that you also mentioned that, because it is this long form piece of content that's just going to be out there, continuing to perform in various different ways, and so it doesn't have to be necessarily, like you said, for people to find you, but it's supportive to those clients that you already have.

Speaker 2: 30:34

I love using my blog that way. That's one of my favorite things to do. It's such a shortcut for me in my mind, because I already have all of this content that I've created in the form of blog posts that now my clients will tell me that was so helpful. Thank you for sending that post about what to wear at this specific beach location, because of the colors there and and because we're going to be climbing rocks and you know there's all of these different things and so, yeah, you can create like a guide, but, like you can create the guide from the blog posts. You know what I mean. Like to your point, you you already probably have some content and if you have it already, this is this is your call to action here to get it done, because then you're just creating all of this content that is just going to continue to serve your clients in various different ways and not just to get found as potential.

Speaker 1: 31:31

I really do think it is all one big like ecosystem that you're at is constantly moving through and recycling and reusing, and I think that a lot of people have had a fear this year, especially with you know, the rise of AI and changes Google's making is what if SEO doesn't exist anymore? What happens then? What happens if it disappears? And you know, the AI robots take over Google. And I always tell people you just have to pivot, like your approach, your perspective of it, because even if SEO disappears, your blog posts can still support so much and so many stages of your sales funnel from nurturing people who have found you through other sources, serving your booked clients.

Speaker 1: 32:13

I love to use blog posts as a way to upsell people. So for a few of my photography clients I've written blog posts about Super 8 and why you should purchase wedding albums, and they've seen upsells from their booked clients through those blog posts Even afterward, like if you are trying to. You know, if you shoot a wedding and you're trying to retain them as a family photography client, you can branch into your family photography blog posts. You just have to take a bit more of like a step back and realize there's so much more to blogging than SEO, and I really do think that it is like a fail-proof, foolproof, risk-free form of marketing. It's free, you don't have to pay a dime, and even if it fails in the sense of organic rankings or traffic, there's still so much you can do with it, and you can't say the same about Instagram or TikTok and stuff like that, no, and you don't own those.

Speaker 2: 33:01

Those could go away. I mean, we've seen so many people getting hacked I think I just saw this morning there was like a whole new thing Like everybody's like losing their accounts because like there's all these data breaches constantly. So you know you own that content on your site and that's your ecosystem, that's your universe, and so you want people to get there and then stay there. That's ideally kind of what you want. You want people to like oh, what else? What else?

Speaker 1: 33:26

What else is here for me? I love working with people in the long term. I have a few clients who I've worked with for two or three years at least and it's really fun to see their library kind of build and build and build and we started with just three blog posts. And build and build and we started with just, you know, three blog posts, but now every blog post I have links to other blog posts, to other topics that are relevant. I wrote, like a blog post this morning about an elopement in Olympic National Park and I was able to link out to an Olympic National Park elopement guide, a Washington Coast elopement guide, a resource on how to plan an adventure wedding with your family All these topics that are relevant. They're called internal links. It's including links to websites within your domain and it's just a great way to get people to stay on your website longer, which is great not only for SEO but to give them more time to build that brand trust and really identify if you are the right fit for them.

Speaker 2: 34:16

Yeah, for sure, and I want to really quick. You mentioned a pixie set, wicks Okay. So that is something I I get asked a lot about too, like when I'm coaching people. Most of the people not all, but a lot of the photographers who do work with me either don't blog yet or have minimally blogged. Right, and they do. A lot of them have these platforms. I have been using WordPress for a million years and I switched over to show it I think like two or three years ago, but I kept my WordPress blog. So that's kind of like what I know. But I get asked that a lot about like well, what about the Pixie set? So I love that you mentioned that. I want to kind of like pick your brain a little bit more about those platforms. Like I feel like there's sort of a feeling that they don't perform as well or they're not as good as WordPress. Let's say, let's kind of dive into that and maybe dispel some of those things.

Speaker 1: 35:17

Yeah, I think that if you, you know, go into a Facebook group about an SEO course and or you take a course, they will always tell you that WordPress is typically the best. And it might be like technically it does have a lot more SEO capabilities and a lot more like kind of guidelines and support systems that you can follow to improve your SEO. But I always tell people to just start with what you have. I know that's again like so annoying. It would be so easy to just say if you're on Squarespace, you have to spend the next six months redesigning your website and going to WordPress, and that kind of feels more fun and it feels like a really good way to again procrastinate actually publishing anything. And then it gives you another excuse and so I tell people you have to start with wherever you're at. You don't need to redesign your whole website.

Speaker 1: 36:04

I've worked with clients who are on Pixie Sat and, while it may not have the most SEO capabilities and it may not perform quite as well on Google, I had her ranking on Google within a couple of weeks, within a couple of weeks of starting her blogs and starting her website. And I think another one of my clients was on Shopify, like using Shopify log, which I've never used and I didn't know you could blog through Shopify either. But we did and we had her ranking on page one for her brick and mortar shop. And so I always tell people again you don't have to be perfect, you don't have to have everything perfectly set in place in order to start seeing the results and the benefits of it and maybe eventually you'll switch to WordPress and that'll be great. But you don't have to put it off until that day happens because otherwise you're just putting off again all the benefits you could start seeing from it. So I just I'm blunt with people. I just say you just got to start.

Speaker 2: 36:59

Do it? No, for sure you guys are. This is your sign. If you've been, if you listen and you've been on the fence, hello, this is your sign. And that's so true because, like and I love too that you saw results and you see results way faster, right, Because I think that we hear, well, it's going to take six months for Google to start indexing and blah, blah, blah. But you're like, no, within like two or three weeks, you can start seeing results like that and start ranking. So why wouldn't you just start, if you? Because that's pretty much almost immediate in my mind. I mean, I'm saying six weeks is not a long time.

Speaker 1: 37:36

And it's so hard because there's so many factors that go into how quickly you rank. So you know one of my clients whose website has been up for years. They have a bunch of blog posts. They built really good trust with Google and their domain and they have backlinks. They might rank way quicker.

Speaker 1: 37:51

But the photographer that I was talking about, who was on Pixie's hat she had her website was pretty fresh, like she hadn't been blogging before. She wasn't, you know, featured on a bunch of wedding publications. But what we did is we focused on a really niche, low hanging fruit keywords and we were able to get her ranking for those so quickly. And so I think you have to be really aware of not just that you're. She's been killing it with her blogging. She's been blogging a lot of like kind of broader general resources about like first looks.

Speaker 1: 38:27

Did you do them? Engagement session outfit guides? And while those are great, I told her those probably aren't going to be bringing you your ideal clients because those are such massive topics. You're going to be reaching more people.

Speaker 1: 38:42

Yes, there might be like a higher search volume for the term engagement session outfits, but are those people going to be the people you are looking for? Probably not, and there are benefits to that. The more traffic you drive to your website, the more Google tends to trust you. But you're probably not going to see as high of a conversion rate from those people because they're just not your people, whereas if you are blogging about again work with a lot of Washington people, if you are blogging about a Ruby Beach alone, which is this beautiful beach on the Olympic Peninsula, you're not going to see as much traffic because that's a really, really niche location and search term. But the people who do search for that are probably going to be the people who are looking for you and who you're looking for find it really fun and a challenge and like, oh, like, I wonder, you know, like think about topics, especially thinking about like blog topics.

Speaker 2: 39:32

So, okay, if anybody's listening and they are, they've just kind of like been on the fence and they know that they've they've got to start doing this, or maybe they have like a little bit done already, but not a ton. Um, where would you cause? A lot of people have a hard time starting. That's like it's really hard. They're like well, it's been so long now, like no one cares, you just have to start, but to them it's a really big deal, right? What kind of posts do you recommend somebody just even like maybe start with or some sort of like things to think about for some of those first posts?

Speaker 1: 40:18

It's funny because I feel like I work with two kinds of people. There's one kind of person who has so many ideas and they don't know which one to start with, and then there's a person that has absolutely no ideas and has no idea where to start. So it's kind of funny. Whichever one you are, if you're a photographer and you are wanting to improve your SEO, I find that blogging about locations you like to work at is a really great first step to that. So what I recommend doing is starting to blog about your primary, like your home arc at first. So if you're a destination wedding photographer, it can feel tough to figure out, like, where to blog about. Start with your home base. So let's say I'm a Seattle wedding photographer, I would start by blogging about two or three of my favorite venues or locations to work at in the area and really targeting couples who are going to be searching for those. And then, if you do work in other areas, I kind of recommend, like, once you've built up blog posts about your favorite locations or like the best time of year to get married at this so-and-so venue or so-and-so area, then you can kind of start expanding out into another state you work in or another country you work in, for example.

Speaker 1: 41:27

Yeah, I like to balance these location-specific, very SEO-optimized posts with the more broader resource posts. And so let's say you want to do like two blog posts a month. How about you start with a blog about your favorite venue or your favorite place to work at, you talk all about it, you really target for that keyword, those searches, and then you write a blog post that's going to serve clients in a more resourceful, broader way. So this could be an engagement session outfit guide. It could be why you should do a first look how to prepare details for your wedding photographer, how to find the right wedding photographer for you, something that may not be quite as high performing, let's say, or high converting on Google, but will serve people once they live on your website. So kind of like. The approach I take is balancing outposts that are going to attract, nurture, convert and upsell and you kind of just like follow a little strategy. It depends on how often you're blogging, but if you're blogging once a month, maybe you just follow that pattern and you alternate. Does that make sense?

Speaker 2: 42:24

Yes, and that's really good advice. And I also piggybacking on that, how often do you really suggest people should be blogging? I mean, I know it's relative, but like in a perfect world, like to make a really big difference.

Speaker 1: 42:43

Let's say, you know, it's funny. I like to tell people that when I first started offering blogging, I was just I was pretty new to it too and I knew I was good at it, but I didn't quite know what people would be looking for. I am pretty sure I had a package that was like eight blogs a month and that is just so many, and you don't ever need to be blogging that much and it's such a subjective question, right? Yeah, hold on TikTok or like SEO professionals will tell you like blog once a week. Yeah, and sure, like that's amazing, like, if you have the time and energy for that, absolutely be blogging once a week.

Speaker 1: 43:17

But I find that the people that I'm working with, who are creatives, who are really focused on other parts of their business, and SEO is not going to be their entire marketing strategy or their entire life I recommend just starting with once a month. Okay, yeah, which might feel like nothing, but if you can kind of get that momentum building and kind of start feeling better and more confident about your ability to do it, then you can maybe increase to twice a month or three times a month or four. I really just say like start slower and smaller than you think you need to, because otherwise you're going to maybe vlog four in one month and then burn yourself out and never blog again. I find that that happens another percent of the time.

Speaker 2: 43:57

All the time. Yeah, because that's the creative brain, like the all or nothing, right, like do it and I'm going to dive in and I'm going to do all these blogs and you're like, ah, I can't, this is not sustainable.

Speaker 1: 44:06

Yeah, and if you do find yourself in that position with that energy like let's say, you finish an SEO course or you finish listening to this blog post and you're like I am so ready to write like five blog posts and you write them, use that energy, but schedule them out in advance. Don't publish them all at once. Paste them out so that you are not doing what we just said and blogging for a month and then just like go stick Google. So use that energy, but yeah, spread them out a little bit, yeah yeah, yeah, that's really good advice.

Speaker 2: 44:34

So you do a lot of this for people and it looks a lot of different ways. There are a lot of people that either in my coaching people who are listening I'm a big believer in outsourcing and delegating and, at the end of the day, if you don't have the capacity for this, there comes a time for all of us, especially as your business is growing and you are making more money and you are out there doing, you know, doing the shooting, and maybe you're also doing the editing and the culling and all of this stuff, and so this part of the business can feel really, really tough to like stay on top of. Even at just one a month, which is better than nothing, like for sure, like one a month is fantastic. You guys like seriously, don't you know? I think a lot of people get to that Well, like, if I can only do it once a month, why bother? No, that's not the mindset.

Speaker 2: 45:28

So all that to say. You know, if people are like I literally don't even have the time or I hate it, like, I hate it, right. Like a lot of people are like, just kill me now, I would rather do anything than write a damn blog post, right? Okay, well, you can hire someone like Danielle, you know, obviously, if she's taking clients, but you do like done for you things and you also walk people through it. Tell me a little bit about like what that looks like too.

Speaker 1: 45:57

Yeah, it's been really fun over the past few years, kind of like building up the library of offers that I have because my done for you roster I can only write so many blogs per month, right, I write maybe like 25 to 30, which sounds crazy to people, but that is my full-time job and so I found that I love having my done for you roster, which is where I fully write your blog posts. I do your SEO strategy, we figure out, we hop on a strategy call and plan out your content for four to eight months. I write them, I choose your images, I hit publish. You don't have to touch them if you don't want to. It's really funny.

Speaker 1: 46:32

I have some clients who I've been working with for so long, who are so busy and who trust me so much I don't even know if they look at their blog posts anymore, but they're like this is working. I'm getting inquiries. Thank you so much. I will send that, all right. And then I have clients who are a little bit more hands-on, and so I like to kind of give them the opportunity to be as hands-on or hands-off as they want, but I can only take on so many of those people at one time, and there are just so so many creatives, and a big audience of mine is photographers, because that's kind of where I'm an expert at, but it's expanding slowly. There's so many people who just need some sort of help, and so the first thing I created was a series of templates that are like my bread and butter. They're specifically for photographers weddings, seniors, couples, photographers and they are essentially like plug-and-play templates that you just have to fill in, because I find that the hardest part of blogging is just staring at a blank Google Doc, and I do that too for my client blogs. It happens all the time. I in fact, today posted a carousel about how to stop writer's block. That doesn't happen, even for somebody who's written more than a thousand blog posts, but these are templates that essentially tell you exactly what to write. They give you like 50 to 100 prompts. Um, because it's? I just I've been where you are as a wedding photographer. I know the ins and outs of a wedding day, I know what is important to talk about and I essentially help you tell the story of a specific wedding in a way that's not just going to be like oh, so-and-so versus sweet and their day was beautiful, but telling in a way that it's a little bit strategic, and I have like a template that you can write a blog post about your favorite venue, like a venue feature or a national park below men guide. So I've got all these templates and then I do have some more like general resources, like blogging workflows for pixies at Wix Squarespace, show it like how to actually build a post where I walk you through it and I show you how to do it, because sometimes you just log into WordPress and it's too overwhelming and you exit the tab immediately.

Speaker 1: 48:31

And then, in my most recent thing that I like am in love with and I'm obsessed with is the blog Bible, which I don't know.

Speaker 1: 48:38

That name is so funny because, if you know anything about me, I'm very big about my journey leaving the church, and so it's kind of like an ironic naming decision.

Speaker 1: 48:46

I love it, but it's essentially a massive like 70 page google doc that you can reference anytime, writing a blog post with everything you need to know, because I do have a course, but I did find that a lot of people that's what I would do too. I'd watch a course and then I would implement and like be going back to the course and like trying to find the right spot in the video and I was like why don't I just kind of turn all of this into google doc where you could like control f if you're like fuck, what is alt text meaning? And like how do I optimize this header? How, how do I rename this file? How do I repurpose this? What numbers do I need to pay attention to? You search it in the Google Doc and it's there for you. So it's essentially like my entire five years of curriculum and knowledge in one big Bible and it's my favorite thing ever and I think it's probably my audience's favorite thing too.

Speaker 2: 49:36

That sounds pretty awesome, like and really and really like valuable, because you're right so many people to like buy things. I'm super guilty of this as well. You know you buy things and you buy courses, whatever, and, like you said, like you either sort of like go back and forth and you have a hard time finding stuff, or it's too big or too much and you don't actually get through it. And so, yeah, having like just a doc that you can search through and just find what you need, what are some of the things that are in there that would help somebody Like is it for people who have never blogged? Is it for people who have blogged a lot? Like or like just kind of covers, a basis?

Speaker 1: 50:15

I would say that it reaches kind of every level of blogger, because I have people who have taken my course and bought all my templates. It's still found this helpful. And then I have people who are brand new to me, who found this to be a really good like introductory approach and it's not something that you want to sit down and read through immediately, like I don't want you to sit down and read 70 pages of a Google Doc. It's more of like the goal is to read a little bit about the beginning of my SEO and approach and then, as you need, as you blog, you start kind of referencing back to it so you know you can use it however you want. I personally printed it out. I should have grabbed my copy because I'm a big like highlighter person and see notes, or you can just like bookmark it to your google chrome tab I like both.

Speaker 2: 51:00

I have found that I I need both. Like I'm very big on the digital space and I'm a notion girl, so I love I don't know. Notion is just like when I found that I was like, oh my god, this is how my brain works, this is fantastic, oh same, you know, like when you find your platform and you're like this is awesome. So I love that. Um, but I also like to have a physical thing too a lot of the times, and it's really cool that you can just print this out and you know somebody could print it and then you know, bind it in and it's on your desk. I love, I love it. I love it. I'm so big into like printed stuff, like just in general, so that's what. And it's like 88 bucks, by the way, like it's super affordable. So I love that. You have all of these different offers, you know, to meet people where they are, which is pretty, pretty rad.

Speaker 2: 51:48

Okay, before we wrap up, cause I can kind of keep you here all day about S of ships, but because you know the show is tried and true with the dash of woo, I always like to like kind of poke around a little bit and find out like what is your? How are you like? What is your sort of like, um, either mindset, practice or things that keep you grounded, or, um, the other side of all this, because you do, you, if you're writing all day and you're in strategy and you're thinking about seo and you're thinking about, you know, leading with the client's voice and all this stuff, you have to, you know, keep your own mindset on track as well. So, what are, what are things you do?

Speaker 1: 52:25

That's a good question. I last year I got my yoga teacher certification and so I haven't been teaching yet I do a lot of yoga. Like I said, I kind of am like going through an adult journey of leaving the church and kind of like figuring out what I believe, and so a lot of that has been like going to yoga and just kind of finding what brings me joy. I love to read. I know that's not like a specific, like a mindset practice, but for me it just it's so good for my mental health to read like really good fiction books. I've started drawing recently.

Speaker 1: 52:58

I do love, you know, my breathwork sessions and I think that lately exercise has been a really, really big thing for my mental health and my mindset in a world that just feels a lot out of chaotic and like a lot. And I've never really been a big active person, I think, since like high school when I used to do sports but as an adult I haven't really gotten into an active lifestyle. Then I got my yoga certification last year and I'm training for a half marathon now and have really just found that moving my body in a way that feels good has just been probably the biggest thing for my mental health right now and going. I go on a ton of walks. I love to go on walks throughout the neighborhood, me too, and spend time with my cats and write. I've been writing on the sub stack recently, which has been really fun, uh. So I feel like I'm kind of just dabbling in a lot right now and figuring out what feels best, kind of playing.

Speaker 2: 53:56

Yeah, playing with that curiosity and seeing, yeah, what, what sort of fills you, fills you up. I love, yeah, I love that, because that is what what life is about. Right, I mean like just getting curious and being like, well, I wonder what that would feel like and trying it on and seeing what it feels like. But I'm the same way as far as like walking.

Speaker 2: 54:13

Walking is um yeah like essential for my just overall well-being. But it's meditative for me. Yeah, very like I, it's one of my. My favorite thing to do is just like literally wake up and just like go and just put my clothes on and leave and I have to listen to like it's so funny, I have to listen to like EDM, like when I'm walking. Interesting, yeah, I'm very.

Speaker 2: 54:41

I don't. I don't want like words, if that makes sense. Like I have too many words in my head. Maybe I get that. Um, so for me it does something where, like once I'm kind of about half, maybe a half a mile in, I just start like kind of going offline, if that makes sense. Right, like my brain is sort of thinking about maybe the things that I've got to do that day, or like coming up with ideas or whatever. But for some reason, a combination of like the walking at a high pace obviously he's like I want to get my heart rate up and actually get some exercise benefits from it, but also something to do with the music and the pace. It just like kind of sets my brain free. It's hard to explain, but I love that.

Speaker 1: 55:29

I kind of want to try that.

Speaker 2: 55:31

Yeah, like I can't. Like I used to listen to podcasts or audio books and things like that, which I think are great. Like I'm a big believer in like listening to things that are self-development while you're doing other stuff. I believe in like efficiency is of my time. Yes, but there's something about just putting on and I like I don't know if you ever heard of Above and Beyond. It's just like really good feeling, like uplifting higher energy music, but it's not like hardcore rave, if that makes sense, right, okay, totally makes sense. So, yeah, there's a difference there, anyway, above and beyond. And so they have like a weekly show that comes out and so I every I just listened to like they just curate this amazing playlist of all these like trans artists that are all sort of in the same vibe. So, first of all, it takes it away from me Like I don't have to curate the list. I love that because I love that too.

Speaker 2: 56:25

I like novelty. I want it to be new, but I want it to be kind of the same, and so that's perfect for me, because it's like I know what I'm getting. I know like the tempo and like the vibe, but I don't have to choose the artist and I don't have to cure it because I don't have time for that. So, anyway, that's my little hack for walking.

Speaker 1: 56:45

I love that. Yeah, so I feel like I alternate between, you know, podcasts. Lately I've been trying to do more just like quiet walks where I don't listen to anything. Yeah, depends on the time of day If it's the morning, that might make me a little sleepy. Depends on the time of day. If it's the morning, it might make me a little sleepy. But my favorite thing to listen to while I walk or run or I'm just in the car is like early 2000s, like music, because it just like brings me back Pitbull and Sean Paul and like all that vibe and that just makes me so happy immediately. So I don't know, I feel like music is so powerful, depending on whether it's Pitbull or EDM or a state of music.

Speaker 2: 57:30

Yeah, you got to do it. It works for you. I love that. I love that music too, one of my favorite genres but it is it's like it hits those dopamine centers, you know, think in just the right way. And for me in the morning it's just like I gotta, I gotta get moving and it just helps me. Yeah, like when I get back I'm like okay, I'm ready, like I can go into like deep focus work and I don't know, it just does something to my brain. So yeah.

Speaker 2: 57:54

I'm a big winter that, yeah, that's my next Cool, all right. Well, tell people where you do like to connect with them so that they can find I am going to mention everything that you know. Obviously, I'll mention your website and the blog Bible, of course, in the show notes, so people can you know, go and grab that because it's such a great resource. But do you like to be on Instagram? Do you talk to people in the DMs?

Speaker 1: 58:23

What do you do? Yeah, I love as much as I, you know, have a little hatred for Instagram. I love, hate relationship. It is such a great place to connect with people. So my Instagram handle is defy creative co and that is where you can find links to everything my email email list. I send out some fun weekly newsletters. I'm on TikTok a little bit here and there it's also Defy Creative Co. I think that's where I found you.

Speaker 1: 58:41

Yeah, I think so, and you know I'm on and off, so Instagram is the most reliable place where I would love to connect.

Speaker 2: 58:47

Perfect, okay, awesome. Then I will put all that in the show notes and you guys go and connect with Danielle there and thank you so much for being here.

Speaker 1: 58:56

Thank, you for having me.

Speaker 2: 58:58

Okay. So I know you were walking away with a lot of really good takeaways from today's episode. I hope the one main thing, though, that you do walk away with is that you need to be blogging, and it doesn't need to be perfect, it just needs to start. Don't overdo it. Don't try and set these really crazy goals for yourself that you're not going to be able to stick to. Just start with one a month. Okay, and grab that Bible. Okay, grab her blogging Bible. It's $88.

Speaker 2: 59:27

It is such a great resource and it's super easy to use. Like she was talking about, it's a, it's a doc, so you don't have to like dig around for stuff Really, really valuable. So at least start there. If you are having trouble even getting started, coming up with ideas, structure, etc. This is going to help you a ton. And remember, people can't find you if you're not talking about yourself. So I want you to stand in that confidence. If you're having a hard time with that, you know that that's a lot of what I do inside of coaching. I work with creatives and photographers of all kinds to not only create great strategies, like we talked about here today on the show, with SEO and being found and being really intentional about the way that we're found, but I also help you through the mindset piece of it as well, which is this whole I don't want to show up.

Speaker 2: 1:00:15

I don't want people to see me the fear of being perceived or, you know, feeling slimy or gross about. You know talking about how awesome you are and I am on a mission to change that, especially for female entrepreneurs. So if you need help with that, let's chat. Thanks again for joining me and I will see you guys next time. Love you, bye.