Speaker 1: 0:00

Hey, hey, just popping in for a quick second to remind you guys of the amazing AI opportunities that I have going on for you guys this month. Okay, so I am involved in a couple different bundles, as well as summits, and they're all AI related, so I wanted to make sure you have all the information. Obviously, I have also put everything in the links below in the show notes, but in case you are confused about what they are, here's the deal. First of all, there is one that is very photographer specific and that is from Sync, and they are going to be doing one that is the AI Summit for Photographers. So I have contributed to that as well, and it's an amazing bundle. You guys can get it for free if you want to watch it live, or you can upgrade so that you can watch the replays. This is a fantastic one. You guys definitely want to get involved in this if you're a photographer. And then there's also the Her AI Summit, which is absolutely incredible, because this is all about female energy in the AI space, because we need more women in the AI and tech space. So the women who are putting this on are phenomenal. I'm super honored to be invited to be a part of this one as well, and there's a presentation for you guys to watch there as well. That link is below. You guys are going to love this. There's some really interesting out of the box ways that you probably haven't even thought to use AI, so definitely check that out. And then there's also a bundle. This is free. You just have to sign up with your email. It's called the Ease and Alignment AI Bundle and it is fantastic. So you're going to get a bunch of free resources in this one and I highly recommend you check these out. Like I said, the links are below for you in the show notes.

Speaker 1: 1:38

Let's get back to the show. Welcome to Tried and True with Adash and Wu, where we blend rock solid tips with a little bit of magic. I'm Renee Bowen, your host, life and business coach and professional photographer at your service. We are all about getting creative, diving into your business and playing with manifestation over here, so are you ready to get inspired and have some fun? Let's dive in. Hi friends, welcome back to tried and true with the Dash of Woo. I'm your host, renee Bowen.

Speaker 1: 2:08

Today's conversation is one that I know many of you are going to resonate with, because we're diving into the patterns that keep us stuck. So if you have ever caught yourself thinking, why do I just keep doing this, whether that's in your relationships, your business or just sort of how you show up in the world, you're not alone. We all have these loops that we repeat, not because they're good for us, but because they're familiar. So you've heard me talk about that a lot, and breaking free from them takes more than just willpower. It takes awareness, nervous system support and a whole lot of self-trust.

Speaker 1: 2:42

My guest today is someone who has been leading that conversation around mental health for over a decade. Katie Morton is a licensed marriage and family therapist, a best-selling author and a powerhouse voice in the mental health space, with a YouTube channel that's reached millions. Her new book why Do I Keep Doing? This is all about how our early conditioning and survival strategies show up in adulthood and how we can finally shift them. So what I really love about Katie's work is that she blends the clinical with the intuitive. She helps us see not just what we're doing, but why we're doing it, and that opens the door for real change.

Speaker 1: 3:22

This conversation is going to give you some insight into why you stay stuck and also how to begin finding your way out and stick around till the end, because, after my chat with Katie, I'm going to be sharing some of my own takeaways and some practical tools that you can use right away to create movement if you're feeling stuck in your own life and business. So let's dive in. Here's my conversation with Katie Morton. Katie, thanks so much for being here. I'm really excited about this conversation because I talk about some of the things that we're going to talk about a lot, but you are like the pro in this field. I mean, you've been doing this work for well over a decade, reaching millions of people with videos and books and talks, and so I just kind of want to start really quickly at the beginning, what sort of drew you to focus so deeply on mental health, but specifically on the patterns that keep people stuck?

Speaker 2: 4:16

Yeah, great to be here. Thanks for having me. In general, I was drawn to psychology and being a therapist because I love people and, for lack of a better explanation, I get really bored, like I have worked a lot of jobs and after a while it's just kind of the same old shtick every day. But therapy's not like that, because people are different and lives change and situations adjust and we have to manage, and I find that it's the most fulfilling work I've ever done. I also, as a kid, love being like the secret keeper you know, and like knowing the dirty deets, but also taking pride in the fact that I wouldn't tell anybody you know, and so that's kind of what started it. And then, especially when it gets into what we're going to talk about today, like patterns that keep us stuck.

Speaker 2: 5:02

I honestly was drawn to this because I struggle. I think everybody struggles and if any therapist or mental health professional tells you they don't, they're lying, because we're human and we all have these propensities for behaving in certain ways. A lot of it comes from childhood. It can also come from other experiences we've had that we're drawing from, and I just really felt like it was something that I not only wanted to take people along on my journey. But I also just wanted to normalize the fact that we all have things we do that we wish we would stop doing.

Speaker 1: 5:29

Totally yeah. Now, I was kind of the same way. Right, I have a bachelor's in psychology. I never went through it. It was my intention to go and get that master's and to be a therapist and then life just took a big detour. But that was sort of like. You know my own stuff too. I was. I was the anxious kid.

Speaker 2: 5:49

We didn't know it was that we didn't talk about it like we do now, like when I grew up, I'm like not everybody has like a racing heart for no reason, right?

Speaker 1: 5:56

I just thought everybody was like that, because how would I not, you know, like that's just our own experience, right. And I remember kind of having both of those feelings like does everybody feel like this? And also I feel like I might be the only one Right. And so I think part of me just like seeking fellow you know people who got it and then I in high school, we actually had a psychology class in high school which was kind of progressive, for me back in the day and it just started when I was in high school, like I think I was one of the first classes to do it and I was like this is so cool.

Speaker 1: 6:31

Yes, yeah. So same thing for me and I was like, oh, I dig this, I think I could do this, so that's cool.

Speaker 1: 6:33

I love hearing about how people are drawn to it because you do you have to love people to like really want to do what you do. And so, okay, you've said before that these patterns, you know, of keeping people stuck, they're not random, they're survival strategies a lot of the times right. And so, like, let's kind of dig into that a little bit and maybe even if you could share a story or an example of like what that could look like, because I know you've seen and heard a lot and experienced a lot of it yourself.

Speaker 2: 7:00

Yeah, there's a ton of directions we can take this in. I'll just offer one that I talk about in my book, specifically about, like perfectionism. So I struggle a lot with people pleasing perfectionism, trying to make myself smaller. There's a ton of things we could get into all those things, but perfectionism in particular. I was able, through my own therapy, to connect it directly to my relationship with my dad. Okay, and so I'm going to kind of walk you through so you can see how your past can dictate your present and your future if we don't recognize it's happening.

Speaker 2: 7:29

So my dad, growing up great dad loved being a father, but a big piece of what he thought his role was was to earn money for the family, which meant he worked away from home a lot, and I thought in my little kid brain that he would be able to show up for my choir concert or for my sports event, like my softball game or my soccer game or whatever, or be there for me more.

Speaker 2: 7:54

If I was better, like if I did better, then that would mean he could show up, because he keeps saying he's going to show up and then he ends up having to fly to, like Alabama or, you know, alaska or wherever.

Speaker 2: 8:03

So, as a result of my dad working away from home and me not really understanding the why and I don't know if it's because nobody talked to me about it or what my family wasn't the most communicative, you know, like most of ours it's just like a newer thing.

Speaker 2: 8:18

But I tried to make sense of it the best I could and I thought it was because I wasn't a straight A student. I wasn't a straight-A student, I wasn't the first chair in band, I wasn't getting all of the solos and choir you try to chalk it up to these things. I wasn't on the varsity team yet I thought that if I did that then I would get him to be around me more. And because of that I take that into, because I didn't recognize this. I took it into teenage years, you know, up into college and my 20s and even, honestly, into my early 30s, of just thinking that if I didn't do something perfectly, then it wasn't good enough, and then that meant that I wasn't going to be worthy of love, I wasn't going to be worthy of attention, and so I know that might be like a simplistic explanation, but things like that are so common.

Speaker 1: 9:06

Yeah, they really, really are. And it's kind of interesting to me because, I mean, it's one of the reasons why I went back and got certified in some things when I started coaching entrepreneurs, because they were coming to me for business coaching. You know like, oh, how did you do this? How are you making money? And I quickly realized, okay, there's nothing I could teach you that you're going to actually follow through on if you don't, sort of like, go back and fix this other thing. But I'm not a therapist, so I can't, like you know, do that part with you.

Speaker 1: 9:37

And a lot of my coaching clients do have therapists too I will just mention that which is great because I think that they can work really well together, right, because, like, a coach can challenge you in different ways, and I think that there's a beautiful dance that happens when I work with someone who has a therapist.

Speaker 1: 9:52

I love, love, love it. But yeah, for me that's a great example, because that perfectionism, especially with female creatives, is legit, a running theme like in some way or another, and it's a great example too, I think, of like that was your experience with it, right, and that's how it sort of played out. But someone else could come to me and I even have the same thing, right, but it's because of a different reason. And when you dig deeper, right, that's just kind of like what it's about. It's like noticing where that's coming from, and this other piece of it is like being able to access that information without it continuing to stir it up and trigger you and keep you in this like fight or flight. So that's sort of like that piece that I think is so important. It's like, yeah, okay, that's where it comes from, but okay, now what? Right, and that's definitely something that you work with people in therapy, you know for.

Speaker 2: 10:48

Yeah, because knowing is it's a huge. I feel like it's more than half the battle, because we can't change what we don't understand, right, but that doesn't really get me through. It doesn't actually change it, but it allows me to see like, oh, okay, for me it comes from this belief that, like, somehow perfectionism equals attention and love. And then essentially a lot of my therapy work has been like disproving that, like untangling that, so I can see. It's like I always tell my patients and my viewers I'm like sometimes you have to check your facts and thoughts are not facts, and having a thought multiple times for years and years doesn't make it a fact. And so you have to take a little time with yourself to be like hey, like when I catch myself thinking like right now I'm sitting on something I should turn in, but I keep reading it through and I'm like, why are you doing this?

Speaker 2: 11:37

Like you know, are you, do you feel like you're not good enough? Is that what this is about? Are you afraid're gonna fail and then that's gonna mean something else? You know you have to kind of challenge yourself and push yourself and be like just do it. You know, 80 is enough. Or you know, um? One of my favorite quotes and I mentioned in my book comes from the workbook the artist's way, yes, which I love. If somebody, if you haven't done it, do with it's amazing, it's a lot of work, god, life-changing. One of the quotes in there. She says perfectionism. I always thought was seeking out the best in things, but it was actually me looking for the worst 100%.

Speaker 1: 12:13

Oh my God, like I have chills, I know, and I've done the Artist's Way and I've read it. And it's so interesting because my younger son, who just graduated from music college, and he just we had given him that book years ago, right Probably when he was like 18. He wasn't ready yet.

Speaker 2: 12:32

Yeah, I mean that's awesome to even have. I mean I did it for the first time at like 36. That's awesome.

Speaker 1: 12:38

Yeah, we were that. I mean, I'm married to an actor, a writer, I'm married to probably the most creative person on earth and I think I'm kind of like somewhere, half I have one foot in, one foot out, like I'm creative but I'm also really logical, and so we were very early adopters of all of that. So our kids kind of grew up around all of that, you know, honestly, and we talked about it. But he in particular, he is a true artist and you know, now just graduating, and he's like in the what if?

Speaker 1: 13:03

Period of his time, and it was funny because he called me and he was like, hey, can you send me that book Because I think I'm ready for it now? And I was like, oh my God, he's asking for it. It's amazing. So, anyway, just like a little side note about the artist way, like if you haven't done it and you are an artist or creative or anyone, like it's just a phenomenal and it is a lot, you have to sort of devote some time to it. But all that to say, it's definitely so true that you're looking to prove what you believe right, like somewhere along the line you believe that you aren't perfect or whatever, and so it's like that unconscious trigger of looking for proof of that, because we're going to find proof of what we're looking for.

Speaker 2: 13:43

Yeah, and that's like the I love, that's a really important piece is like confirmation bias and people don't talk enough about it. How think of like the fact that if you see that there's this new car out on the market and you see a commercial for it, then suddenly you see it everywhere and you're like, have I? Just? Why am I seeing this everywhere? Because you know of it now and it has more of a tie in your brain, and so, instead of it driving by and you're not even paying attention, now you're like oh, look at that car. Oh, your brain loves patterns, it loves to look for things that prove things it already knows. Right, learning new information?

Speaker 2: 14:20

Challenging ourselves is hard and it's unknown and our brain doesn't like that. It's a little bit scary. We don't really know what's going to happen, and so our brain goes looking for the things that we quote, unquote, already know, for more proof that it's true. And so, in order to untangle these things, we have to like force our brain out and to be like no, no, no, I'm going to look like. I always tell my patients and my viewers alike I'm like you know, you have to go out and be like what is an alternative to this story right, it's almost like I call it being a detective about it. We think of these.

Speaker 2: 14:56

Okay, this person I love like crime, so I'm like this person was murdered. They don't just automatically like it was the boyfriend. They're like it could be the boyfriend. It could also maybe be the neighbor. It could also like. I need you to do that work. I need you to say this could be happening because I'm no good, or this could be happening because this person is having a tough day. That's why they were kind of an asshole. This person acted this way. You know it had nothing to do with me. I. I need you to challenge and push your brain to come up with some other alternatives.

Speaker 1: 15:25

Totally. And when I learned about the reticular activating system, which is basically kind of what we're talking about here, is that filter in our brain, it sort of changed my life. I was like, oh okay, that's what they mean by that, because, like, it really is a system of our brain, like you said, like it loves patterns and it's going to look for proof, and so if you believe that no one's going to pay these prices or whatever, because it's going to show up in a lot of different ways. You know, like, not just like in your personal life, it'll show up in your business, especially if you were a solo business owner. Like 100% it's going to show up. And that's for me, that's when my money stuff started showing up, because I grew up I was, like you know, my parents were divorced when I was seven and a half, like seven basically, and I didn't really have a relationship, close relationship, with my dad.

Speaker 2: 16:10

So you can imagine that there was a lot of stuff that went.

Speaker 1: 16:13

but God bless my mom Like she put me in therapy when I think I was like 17.

Speaker 2: 16:18

My mom at 15 put me in. I'm forever grateful.

Speaker 1: 16:22

Same, because, girl, she must have seen like this is an anxious child, you know what I mean. Like I really didn't know, I didn't have the words for that then, and so a lot of that was played out. But all that to say like I didn't really even know, I had issues with like asking for a sale or have money stories or any of that stuff, like beliefs about money. I didn't even think about it really in those terms until I had to go out there and start asking people to pay me for work that I did and that was like a whole different story. And that's when I realized I had some worth. Things tied to like why my dad wasn't there and not paying child, all this stuff, right.

Speaker 2: 16:57

Like being a woman and asking like there's so many layers, so many layers, yeah, and so I had to sit with it too, and that was the piece of.

Speaker 1: 17:10

It is like that's what the gift of therapy is that a good therapist will walk you through that and you will learn to sit with it and access it where it's not going to kill you, it's not going to. You know what I mean. Like there is that place and so huge believer and proponent of therapy for so many reasons. But okay, so let's talk a little bit about in your new book. I love this whole topic. Why do I keep doing? This is the name of the book, which means hello, it's perfect. Like, why do I keep doing this? You explain why familiar doesn't always mean healthy and so why do we cling to what we know, even when it's painful?

Speaker 2: 17:48

Because, just, it's a great segue because of what we're talking about. Our brain loves patterns, it loves predictability and I know you're like. So what does that mean? Why would it want unhealthy, why would it want painful, why would it want to put me in another hurtful or abusive situation? Because it already knows it, because it knows what that means, how it's going to feel, that we can survive it, because we already have, and it kind of like, has walked through all the steps.

Speaker 2: 18:13

So when we try to do something different, our brain's like whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. I don't know these steps, I don't know the outcome. That unknown, that new direction you want to take, this is scary, right, it's not predictable. I can't already tell you and plan and prepare. It feels very unknown. And so, because our brain loves patterns and that's not a pattern yet, it's a brand new thing it would prefer you go back to what you already know, which is why breaking out of I call it the blueprint, like when we're born and, like you said, like not having your dad around, like these are ways that our blueprint is being drawn, and each of us has strengths in our blueprint and weaknesses in our blueprint, but in order to redraw it. We have to take a gamble. I'm going to make this room this big. Do I know if it really needs to be that big? I don't, but I'm going to do it because I know that I can't go back to this other way. I have to erase that and I have to redraw right, and so we're just taking chances. And so that's really why new and novel, as healthy and as wonderful and as hopeful as it can be, can feel terrifying and be the hardest thing for you to do. It's almost like a good example for me is that I don't. I really hate conflict, surprise, surprise.

Speaker 2: 19:29

And so when I was having an issue with my husband and we've been together, god, for like I don't know 16, 17 years and I, instead of leaning in and telling him like hey, what you said really hurt my feelings, or I wish you would have addressed me this way or that way, I like to run away. I'm like my silence will speak volumes. It's like kind of passive, aggressive, but also just like I don't know how to communicate my needs. And I've been in therapy since I was 15. I'm 40. Like I should get my shit together right, I'm also a therapist, but just because we know better doesn't mean we always do better.

Speaker 2: 20:01

But my therapist had told me, when you sense that runaway, that pull out or puffer fishing, like that's what I call it like stick spines out, she goes. I want you to do something really uncomfortable. I want you to do opposite action. I want you to lean in to him and I want you to say, hey, that hurt my feelings and I don't really know how to deal with it. She's like you don't have to have a resolution, you don't have to have an answer. Lean in Now when I tell you for me to talk to him. I love my husband, he's a great man.

Speaker 2: 20:33

I was so nervous. I'm like, walking up to him in his office, I'm like, okay, we're going to do this, we can do this, we can do this. We can say, hey, the way you said that just hurt my feeling. He was like, oh my God, I didn't know, I'm so sorry. And then he, yeah, in a matter of I would have like ruminated on that for days, resolved in a few seconds. But to say that it wasn't hard and that it wasn't against every fiber of my being would be a lie. And so when you're making difficult changes, just know that that discomfort, that the anxiety, the sweaty palms and the shaky voice is all part of the process and that you'll get better and it will feel more comfortable because, just like we said, our brain loves patterns. It loves to know how things turn out. So now my brain's like oh, I can say stuff to him and it's not terrible. Exactly, I just opened up a whole new part of my blueprint.

Speaker 1: 21:25

Yeah, and you're creating all those new neural pathways that we know actually is a thing with the neuroscience. Like every time you do that, that groove will get deeper and then you'll get to. It'll become more of that pattern and of a familiar feeling, but in a good way this time, and so you're literally rewiring your brain, which is so fun and awesome that we can do that. But it's so interesting because I have the same thing, like it took me again, like I've been in therapy for so long, I have a degree in it, like I believe in it, and yet it's like someone is cutting me open without anesthesia for me to actually say those words. It was like what the heck is going on here, you know and it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out why I would have those issues and be like it's pretty clear on paper, but it, you know, you get so close to it. Everything is like right here, and when you're in that fight or flight it's really hard to go. Oh okay, there's something else going on here and I am safe.

Speaker 2: 22:23

I am safe in this place.

Speaker 2: 22:25

And fight and fight or flight. It helps me always know neuroscience a little bit to get a little nerdy with it that, like when our fight flight is triggered, that means our amygdala is firing, our limbic system shooting messages, and what that does is it prioritizes safety and essentially, security for us, and there's no here's the big kicker there's no prefrontal cortex action. It takes it offline, and that's important to know, because your prefrontal cortex is organized thought, planning and preparation and also language, a lot of organized language. So of course it's like it's hard for me to communicate. My mind goes blank when I go to talk about something I'm stressed about right and I can't put in the steps to make that happen. It's hard and so your brain's kind of fighting against you a little bit.

Speaker 1: 23:16

I always say, when that happens, all the blood will rush to your limbs. So you get fast, but you get dumb because it literally brings it out of everything else.

Speaker 1: 23:25

You're not thinking in a logical, conscious way. You are literally just running on your programming at that point. And if you've got some programming which all of us do, it just depends on, like, what level of it is right, like so big T or little t, you know, and so it can be a lot. But I find I want to touch on this really quickly before we kind of go further on that, because what I think is really very interesting because you had said before about how anything that is new or novelty right is going to trigger those responses in us, and I just think it's so funny, it's like a cruel joke.

Speaker 1: 24:02

I think that so many of us creatives have these spicy, neurodivergent brains and we crave the new, we want something new, we want to like we have like 50 million ideas and we want to follow them and we have like it's exciting, and then we start doing it. We're like oh crap, I do not think this is for me, so like I want to kind of like dig into your therapist brain on that a little bit. Like so, and also because I mean I kind of approach it too from like the metaphysical, where it's like okay, I really believe that if you were drawn to something, it's meant for you and your higher self is like sort of popping in and saying, okay, no, this is good for you and that there are no mistakes. Right, like, okay, if you're drawn to it, there's a reason why, and all of those triggers contain some gold for you if you're willing to look at it. But I want to kind of hear your take on that.

Speaker 2: 24:51

Yeah, I mean especially my ADHD patients. They have the only things they'll purchase in like a weekend. They're like I decided I'm going to do knitting and I bought all of this stuff and I have all these plans and blah, blah, blah, and then they do it for a week and they're like I decided I hate it. Totally fair. I think there's a couple of things here. First of all, we have to recognize our impulsivity. Everybody has different amounts, different things that cause it. One of the best things we can all do, period bar none, is check in with yourself before you make any major decisions. You make any major purchases, you decide your next move. It doesn't mean like to your point, we can't get excited, we can't journal a little bit about this new idea and this thing we want to do and what it would take. That's all great. That's like giving yourself time to process, because what usually ends up happening? The reason I said check in with yourself is I always talk about halt, hungry, angry, lonely, tired. It's a great resilience check-in. Have I eaten in the last three to four hours? How did I sleep last night? Have I connected with someone? That I really feel like gets me, you know? Am I angry about something I haven't communicated. Often those are lingering in the back. We don't even recognize it. Check in with that before you start taking a leap. Like you said, there's nothing wrong with having flights of ideas and you're so excited and I want to try this new thing. I want to take up knitting. But we don't have to spend $400 on Amazon in one night to do this thing. Let's check in. Hungry, angry, lonely, tired. How are you doing? Okay, maybe we journal a little bit about. That's what I used to tell one of my ADHD patients. By the time she'd journal about what it was going to take, she'd already hate it a lot of times, and so that would save her from like jumping in.

Speaker 2: 26:38

So there's that piece. But then there's also this I call it like the compassionate piece where we have to be like but that child us, that impulsive, excited, is beautiful and you should care for that and cultivate that. But again, that doesn't mean we have to make huge financial decisions, change our business plan and pivot again or communicate this to anybody. I think it's enjoying that part of ourselves, like when you journal about this. I don't want you to shame or blame, I want to be like. I'm so excited. This is so beautiful. I can imagine myself making these quilts that I will put on the wall and whatever I'm going to make music, it's going to be amazing.

Speaker 2: 27:09

Let yourself go down the path while just checking in, because when we're hungry, angry and lonely, tired, we're way more impulsive. We're way more apt to make decisions that aren't based in our best interest. Our prefrontal cortex might not be online, right, the blood will be in our limbs. We're not necessarily who knows right. So those are just kind of the things I think of when I think of, like, neurodivergence and the beautiful piece of that that creates amazing art, because I don't want to shut down that pipeline, but you do want to just be a little bit more intentional, which I know is hard, because we get excited and we want to make moves.

Speaker 1: 27:43

For sure. I see it in lots of different ways inside of my coaching and just in my own house. I like to say like there's basically a neurodiversity soup in my house, you know, like somebody who's got autism or ADHD or both or whatever, and so like it's just a lot of checking in. I mean, that's honestly I don't think I've heard it as that acronym before, but and which I love and I remember, cause my oldest has autism and it was probably one of his therapists that was talking about that with us, with him when we were trying to like kind of like deal with some behaviors when he was really little, and I remember thinking I think we definitely need to be using that more.

Speaker 2: 28:24

We all do the things I do in the heat of the moment or when I'm frustrated, you know yeah.

Speaker 1: 28:30

Like my husband wasn't diagnosed with ADHD until he was in his forties, and so I look back now you know I'm in my fifties and he is too, and we were talking about this the other day.

Speaker 1: 28:39

It was really, it was really funny because we were having a good laugh about it now, but it's so crazy to us to like think about those earlier days, like even just like, with us being new parents and having three kids under the age of two and, you know, him being an actor, like just having this really wild life.

Speaker 1: 28:57

I was like can you imagine what people aren't like the outside looking in, we must've looked like absolute chaos, like even our adult kids will talk about this. Now they're like, yeah, we used to take these long, long road trips we love a good road trip in our minivan and they loved it. They still talk about how they loved it, but like it was chaos, like it was absolute, like insanity, and it wasn't until our kids got older and they were in our teenage years and I think that you know we were sort of like, you know everything was just getting not as crazy let's just say Crazy is not the right word but chaotic. Okay, yeah, that we were all starting to notice I don't think other people- have families like this.

Speaker 2: 29:40

I don't think. I think it's just us.

Speaker 1: 29:41

I think we're just part, yeah, yeah. And my daughter says that now she's in her grad program and she's like, yeah, it was a lot, it was a lot in our house and I was like I know, and I didn't realize it because I was in it, and now that I look back I'm like, yeah, it was, it was. There was just a lot going on at all times Like someone was always in that place of like a little bit of dysregulation, I think, you know. And so learning how to regulate yourself, that's that's sort of a good good segue into this conversation, I think, because that all goes hand in hand with what we're talking about and being stuck and sort of like breaking out of that blueprint. So I talk a lot about nervous system regulation just in general and on the show at my coaching, just in my life. How do our bodies play into patterns of keeping us stuck as well, that's a great question.

Speaker 2: 30:30

The truth is, they have a huge role because, like I talked about going to talk to my husband, when I'm like I need to say something and I don't like my palms get sweaty, I feel shaky, like you're my anxiety, like we can feel not only mentally could our thoughts feel like they're racing or feel scrambled, but our body experiences the same upset and dysregulation. Right, because they're connected. I hate when people are like it's mental health or physical health. I'm like they are part of the same unit. I don't know why we're having this conversation, and so just recognizing how your body responds can be really, really powerful, because there are a ton of different kind of really basic things I guess you can do, but kind of like neuros, you're like calming your body down. They can call them grounding techniques, you can call them just neuroscience-backed behavior techniques, but there are two that I find to be the most effective. Number one is temperature change. So if you find yourself feeling incredibly overwhelmed, your body is responding to I don't know. Let's say, your boss gave you some feedback you weren't prepared to hear and you're having a. You don't want to cry at work, you don't want to yell, so we sit with it and maybe tears come without us even wanting them and we're like, why am I freaking out? And you're sweating a lot and you're like, oh my God, oh my God, go and get. Like, maybe keep a water bottle in the freezer at work. If you can, you grab that water bottle and you put it on the back of your neck. Cold is. When I say temperature change, I mean bring cold into the picture. Hot, I guess if you're in a really cold area, hot tea could work, no-transcript.

Speaker 2: 32:21

The second one, and one that I recently discovered, probably a few months ago, is I don't even know what I would call it. I just call it like brain reset, but it's making your brain do something odd, like, let's say, you're maxed out again at work. Same situation your boss gave you feedback. I want you, if you write with your left hand, I want you to write with your right hand for a little bit. Or I want you to and this might sound a little weird if you have a little privacy in your office, I want you to walk backwards.

Speaker 2: 32:45

I know this sounds really crazy I want you to tap your head and rub your stomach, because what that does is that autopilot we kind of talked about, like how your brain loves those patterns and it wants to go right into the old way that we used to communicate, the old way we used to engage. It forces it out of that, it makes it think, yep, it pulls us into the prefrontal cortex. I have to think about this, I have to plan this, I have to like what am I doing? Even counting backwards, skipping a number like 10 to 8. It sounds so simple, but it really tricks your brain and snaps it out of that. And so those are just a couple of things. I mean we could talk grounding techniques too. Yeah, there's so many, truly.

Speaker 2: 33:24

There's a zillion, one that my patients always have loved over the years, is counting. Colors is what we call them. So in your room, look around like how many things are brown, how many things are blue, and that just brings you back into the present and stops you essentially from freaking out.

Speaker 1: 33:39

That's a really good tactic that I've used, that I've taught my kids to use with their anxiety, to break out of a panic attack. Because when you're in that place it's really hard Like you don't. It's hard to snap out of it, especially if you're new to panic attacks, like now. I'm like a seasoned panic attacker, like you know what I mean. Now I'm like, oh, it's just a panic attack, I know how to get myself out of it.

Speaker 1: 34:09

When I started having like the first panic attack, I, my kids, a couple of my kids have really bad anxiety too, and so that's one of the things that I taught them early on. That really, really works. Like I want you to today just just see how many purple things you can find, just in general. You know, and I love I'm a counter, like that's sort of like my little OCD thing that I've got is like a count everything and I mean like, unconsciously I don't notice that I'm doing which is really hilarious, because I could barely pass algebra Like it's so funny. I'm like, why am I not a math wizard? Because, like, literally, I count everything just unconsciously and I count by twos and it's just like an anxiety thing. Wasn't until college that I learned.

Speaker 2: 34:50

Oh, this is this is one of the OCDs. Oh yeah, I know I used to spell everything before I'd say it and my therapist was like people, don't do that.

Speaker 1: 34:59

I was like what do you mean? People don't count on their teeth. What are you talking about? You don't sing with your teeth like in counting twos. And people were like what are you?

Speaker 2: 35:08

How, like how are you functioning right now? And you're like I'm not.

Speaker 1: 35:17

That's actually how I'm functioning.

Speaker 2: 35:18

Just so you know, that's the little thing that I do.

Speaker 1: 35:19

Yeah, exactly yeah no, I love those tips because they're simple, they're easy, the temperature change for sure.

Speaker 2: 35:30

Yeah, 100%, have used that a lot. So those are good little little hacks and I tell people, if you are, if you do struggle with panic attacks or dissociation, keep those. You know those little break packs that turn to ice for like first aid kits. You can buy them in bulk on Amazon. I know you might not want like a huge amount, but having 10 or so like I have one in the car or I have one in my purse, I have one at work in my desk Like that might save you my desk, like that might save you.

Speaker 1: 35:53

So you know, keep those on hand too. Yeah, good, good tip, I love those. That's awesome. I have to go Amazon here I come, okay, so you, you've built a really unique space, just in general, where you do you merge the clinical side of therapy and the science based, you know, data with a little bit more of an intuitive awareness, which I love, and I'm just interested to hear your perspective on that, why you think that combination is important in healing.

Speaker 2: 36:20

Well, before we started filming, I was like I love your podcast, I love a little bit of woo, because I am kind of woo-woo and I always use that term, too, with my audience. I'm like I know this is a little woo-woo to hang with me, and the truth about it is, first of all, I've always felt I'm a very intuitive person and people can think or judge whatever they want to think or judge. But I mean, I have a ton of different examples of like deja vu that came to fruition and was a thing and my grandma had it too and I feel like there's kind of this like we do know now through new neurological research that we have more than our five senses. I know we talk about the sixth sense, but I don't know if you've heard more recently. They're thinking we have like senses in the like 20s or 30s of them, and so there's a lot of different things that I don't feel like everyone's tapped into. That's not judgment, like we should be tapped into all of them, but I do feel like we need to use all of the resources we have available to help us be better and feel better and be more in tune with our world. I think it's really easy these days to disconnect and to feel like you know we're alone in something, that we don't have any idea how we're feeling or thinking. And I'm always encouraging people to tap in and I think that comes along with a little bit of that woo-woo, like, if you have an intuition that a situation is bad, get out of that situation. If you have a little feeling that like maybe I should just journal about this, journal about this.

Speaker 2: 37:39

Like my specialty is in eating disorders. That's where I started and a lot of what I used to run this group called the Body and Soul Group and a lot of what I was trying to help the women in the clinic I worked at recreate was the connection between you and your body and like your body sends signals. We talked about how your body feels when you start to feel anxious. A lot of people that are listening might have been like oh my God, that was anxiety. Oh, that makes sense. I didn't even connect. I think if we don't use all the things we have I know it's like a long-winded answer of like we need to use all our resources so that we can be not only more in tune with ourselves but then with our world, and I feel like it makes things just ever so slightly easier and I feel like then we're tapped into more information so we can make a better and more informed decision, if that makes sense.

Speaker 1: 38:28

Yeah, oh, 100%. And do you think that I feel like you know I always tell my coaching students like this is like another tool in your self-awareness tool belt, right, like there's nothing, I don't think there's anything bad that comes from. Yeah, I think you can be a little too self-aware, like I'm probably that, but you know it can lead you down that path. It can. It can help open these doors for you where you're like, oh, okay, without judgment, ideally, you know above. Oh, that's interesting. So one of the things that I will do a lot and I will work with my students with as well when you notice these things, instead of like immediately go into that, why are you doing that? That sucks. Like you said, just go. Oh, that's interesting. I wonder what that's about. You know and like just sort of like try and repattern some of that. But, like, I feel like learning to trust yourself and learning to trust your intuition first of all, as women, I feel like we all sort of like have an innate knowing. Some people, like you said before, like may have a deeper sense of that than others, but I really do feel like it's a part of us and so learning how to like trust that is part of this self-awareness tool, you know, because so many times we have been taught to not trust that inner voice, especially as women Like yes, override it. That's a great word because, you know, for one logical reason or another it doesn't make sense. But, like you know, we can all find examples of that, knowing I 100% have had, like, some really wild moments, and even you know one of the things that sticks out. This is the funniest thing.

Speaker 1: 40:04

I always tell this story my mom. You know I come from a long line of very, I believe, very intuitive women. I'm from the South, my whole family is very Catholic, so it's not like they are doing Wiccan circles or anything like that. Ok, let me just set the scene here. My mom is like she goes to church every Sunday, ok.

Speaker 1: 40:24

And when I got pregnant with the twins, so I already had my older son and he was very young and we weren't really planning on having kids that right back to back, but it just sort of happened. And so the morning of my ultrasound I had taken a test, I knew I was pregnant and I was going to get an ultrasound because I wanted to see how far along I was and I wanted to have a water birth this next time and all this stuff. So I was going to like a birthing center here in LA and so I was on the phone with my mom, talking as I do all the time. She's like my BFF, and just in the middle of this conversation, like we weren't even like talking, she's like do you have a feeling that maybe this is twins? And I was like no, why, why would you say that to me.

Speaker 2: 41:03

I know we have a young baby already.

Speaker 1: 41:07

I'm like, why? Why he's not even two, why, why would you say that to me? And um, she's like yeah, I don't know, I just I just have this feeling. And right then I knew I'm like, well, it's twins, because my mom doesn't just say stuff like that, like when it's very interesting. So, yeah, sure enough, we're doing the. And I tell this to my husband and he's like, ha ha, ha ha, you know, he sort of like laughs it off. I'm like, no, you don't, you don't get it Like I think that this is a thing. Yep, sure enough, they're doing the ultrasound. And the doctor returns to us and goes are there twins in your family? And my husband was just like are you freaking, kidding me right now? So stuff like that.

Speaker 1: 41:42

It's like you know, there are things that you can't explain or you don't want to explain or whatever. And I have a lot of like synchronicities and deja vus and I love like the whole Carl Jung thing with synchronicity too on a side. But anyway, all that to say, I feel like when you embrace it and you sort of like lean into that a little bit, it can lead you to some really cool introspective places, I think. So I would love for you to share your own. Like you said, you are a little woo, right. So what are some personal practices or mindset things that you do that help you when you feel like you're slipping into old patterns?

Speaker 2: 42:16

So, first of all, like we talked about, the biggest piece is recognizing what those patterns are, because sometimes, I swear to God, I'll run into things that are like, like just the other day, we had a task rabbit come to our house and they did a terrible job and I felt really bad about giving them not five stars. And I know you might be like Katie, where is this going? But that's a pattern of mine where, like I, it's like people pleasing behavior, where, like I, feel bad acknowledging that they did a bad job. I don't know why that is, I don't want to hurt their feelings. This guy kind of looked grandpa-ish and I was like, oh, he kind of reminds me of my papa and that makes me kind of sad. What, like these are not the same thing, you know, and I do stuff like that, and so I say that to say that, like, when we're trying to recognize these patterns, do it with curiosity. I am still discovering new ways that I act that I'm like, oh my God, this is everywhere in my life. Annoyed, I'm annoyed, oh right. So with curiosity, not judgment, and when I feel it happening, the best thing again, hold on to that curiosity, because the best thing that I can do for myself, and maybe it's just because I'm a therapist, but I've always been a big journaler, a diary keeper.

Speaker 2: 43:22

Now, not everybody likes to write. You can do video diaries, you can just talk to yourself while you walk along or take some time and take a bath and just think on it. It doesn't have to be writing. But the one thing that I will tell you and I'm sure any therapist would say this you have all the answers. I know you don't think you do, but you have them all. Talking about that intuitive nature, we know ourselves, you know yourself really well. We just often have certain parts that are exiled. I don't like that about me. It doesn't exist. If I pretend it doesn't exist, it's not there. But when we have this pull, this internal pull, we're like oh my God, I'm wanting to pull away again and be passive, aggressive. Or oh my God, I'm dating the same type of person again. Or oh my God, I'm making the same mistake in business. Why am I here again? And we can have this, like we jump to that judgment, like you'd said, like why am I doing this, when you feel that, instead of jumping to the judgment, think what's going on. Why do I think I'm doing this With the curiosity, like, for example, when I want to pull away instead of communicate. I'm like what am I afraid is going to happen if I do communicate? What? That he won't be able to meet my needs, then what would that mean?

Speaker 2: 44:36

And in therapy we call this downward arrow questioning. It's a cognitive behavioral tool and it's essentially of the like if so, then what? So? Like if I am not good at my job, then what? Well, then I'll be poor, I'll lose my job. It's going to be terrible. They're going to fire me. Okay, so they fire you. Then what? Well, then I have to go looking for another job.

Speaker 2: 44:58

And I know this sounds really simple. And you're like these are easy questions to answer. It's going to get hard. Yeah, real quick. About five, six, maybe seven questions in.

Speaker 2: 45:12

You start running into things like because I'm not good enough, or because I don't deserve to be happy, or whatever. And in this process you learn the why behind the tug. Right, for me it gets down to like I have to hustle to earn my worth, like it's something about like I'm not worthy, right, if I know that then. And you're like okay, well, now I just have this like horrible realization. Well, but that tells you what you need to work on. So, then, my work has to be in self-worth, which means and this is going to be annoying to some people, but that means for me, it's annoying to me I have to talk more kindly to myself and I have to recognize when I don't or when I allow other people to not.

Speaker 2: 45:57

And I know that's again like a simplistic example, but it's putting in that work with yourself where, instead of jumping to the judge, let's jump to curiosity, be a detective, ask yourself a bunch of questions. I pose so many questions in my journal about, like, why did I say it that way? Why am I so bent out of shape about this? This seems like an overreaction Interesting because overreactions aren't bad. They're little indicators that like there's more going on. Why did I find that comment so hurtful? Oh, maybe because I kind of believe it myself, right? So it's just being a little more curious about stuff instead of jumping to judge and letting your intuition guide the way in that Like, maybe I need to take a little beat on this, maybe I am a little more emotional today. You know, again, it's just like listening to your body, listening to how you feel, instead of disconnecting.

Speaker 1: 46:50

Yeah, that's the good piece of it right there is. If you can manage to do that and just get curious and investigate as opposed to just checking out, that's a huge win. Just that right there. So you know, give yourself some grace too.

Speaker 2: 47:07

And avoidance is very normal too, like if you're like wow, I just tapped out and didn't even realize Sometimes you need to. Yes, it can be too much, right? We all have our own capacity, depending on the day right Hungry, angry, lonely, tired. How are we doing? We might want to check out, and I get it, but just promise yourself that you'll try to hold on for 10 more seconds next time.

Speaker 1: 47:27

Yeah, for sure, I call it the anxiety highway. Like it's similar to what you were talking about as far as like, well, okay, if that happens, then what. And if oh, okay, if that happens, then what? That's one of my practices for dealing with anxiety. Because, like for me and I didn't learn this until years of therapy and I was probably in my 30s and I do believe, like my hormones had a lot to do with my anxiety, just as a side note but I always just ran from it right, like because when it's big and it's scary, you don't want it to happen. And then with, like panic attacks, you really don't want that to happen Because, like you know, I've got three kids. Like what happens if I have a panic attack in the middle of the store? Like I won't be able to, you know that sort of thing. So I kind of lived with like a lot of that for a while and then I'm pretty good about just like shutting things off, like when.

Speaker 1: 48:14

I want to compartmentalize. You are dead to me, like literally I can be like and we're done, but I mean it'll always come, it'll come back, but in the moment I'm able to do that Right. So, like, again, what I sort of like had to realize is that if I just turn around and look at it, this big, scary monster of anxiety, if I just look at it and I go, okay, well, what would happen if that happened? What would happen if I had a panic attack right here in the store? Well, people would maybe think I was crazy, and then what would you know what I mean? Like I would allow myself to like go down that anxiety highway because really, at the end of the day, there's always a solution, there's always like something it's not as bad as I am, or my anxiety is creating it to be at that moment. And so, anyway, if anyone, you know, is thinking about that, it helps.

Speaker 2: 49:06

It's awesome that you've created that, though, because in CBT we call that like the playing it out the worst case scenario, and you always go to worst case first because your brain already wants to do that. So play it out what's the worst that can happen, and then what's the best case? Rose color glasses Probably not, you know very likely. And then what's the most likely color glasses Probably not, you know very likely. And then what's the most likely and it sounds silly, but that practice helps. You see, like, oh, I guess I'd be okay. Yeah, and that's a big shift versus oh, my God, I'm freaking out, because then, if you worry about having a panic attack, that makes it more likely that you will, which is such an annoying piece of anxiety.

Speaker 1: 49:42

It's like, ah, so yeah such the annoying piece of anxiety. It's like, ah, so yeah, totally Okay, I can talk about this stuff with you like all day. We could probably have like a three hour podcast. But let's go ahead and wrap up, because we've already talked about so many good things. We've really, really outlined some really helpful tips too for the listeners. But I really do want to chat just briefly about your book. Like let us know you know it is about what we have been talking about but kind of give us a little bit more insight about the book when it's coming. I'll list all of this in the show notes and then how people can like find you and all of that.

Speaker 2: 50:13

Yeah. So my book why Do I Keep Doing this is coming out December 9th and it's honestly all about my journey with control, or the illusion of control. So I walk you through my own history of being in therapy since I was 15 and what I've learned and what I'm still learning. I think the difference of this book from my other books is that it's kind of a come along with me type of book versus a let me teach you this. And there are some teaching moments, like some of the stuff I shared today. I share in the book and there's other tidbits at the end of each chapter to get you thinking, get you asking yourself those questions. But it's probably my most personal book and I'm very excited. You can find it on Amazon, Barnes, Noble, your local bookstore wherever books are sold. It's called why Do I Keep Doing this. It's very pretty and I'm excited about her. So cute To put it into the world. Yeah, and thank you so much for having me.

Speaker 1: 51:08

Yeah, of course, thank you for being here Again, like I know that this is going to be a really, really helpful conversation and the book sounds amazing, so I will definitely put that info for people so that they can maybe pre-order.

Speaker 2: 51:12

Yeah, pre-orders really help authors. It tells us not only where to do book tours and stuff, but also that's how people become bestsellers.

Speaker 1: 51:18

Yeah, absolutely All right, awesome, Thank you so much for being here. Yeah, thanks for having me. Okay, wow, right, that was a really awesome, powerful conversation with Katie. I want to leave you with a few of my own takeaways as well, and some tools that you can use right now if you're feeling stuck. So, first, that awareness is everything right, instead of beating yourself up or repeating the same loop, just notice it. Awareness, without judgment, is the very first step towards change. Second, get really curious about the underneath. Okay, so ask yourself what she was talking about. What is this behavior doing for me? What is this about? What safety or comfort is it giving me? And when you name the need, you open the door to finding healthier ways to meet it. Third, support your nervous system. When you're stuck, it's usually because your body doesn't feel safe enough either to try something new. So take a few deep breaths, box breathing, walk outside, putting your hand over your heart, reminding yourself that you're okay, all is well.

Speaker 1: 52:25

All of these little, small resets can shift everything. She had some really good tips for us in this episode. And fourth, focus on a micro shift. Okay. So, instead of trying to overhaul your entire life in one day, which is what we tend to want to do pick one small action that feels aligned and doable today. So tiny steps really compound over time and they build trust with yourself over time. And that's really the final point. It's about that self-trust, not self-force.

Speaker 1: 52:56

The more you can show your body and your mind that you're safe, that you're capable and that you don't have to repeat the same old patterns, the easier it will become to step into a new one. So if you're listening right now and you're capable and that you don't have to repeat the same old patterns, the easier it will become to step into a new one. So if you're listening right now and you're in that stuck place, take a breath, take one small step and remind yourself that you're not broken. There's nothing wrong here. You're just running an old program and you have the power to write a new one. And if you are a creative business owner and you want someone to help you walk through that, reach out.

Speaker 1: 53:25

I do have a couple of spots open for one-on-one coaching at the moment. Definitely check out Katie's book. All of the info is in the show notes. I know y'all are going to get a lot out of this episode and I'd love to hear your feedback. Hit me up on Instagram at Renee Bowen If you have that feedback for me, or you can go ahead and leave us a review or a rating. Those are so appreciated. You can do that at ratethispodcastcom slash. Renee Bowen. Okay, you guys have a great rest of your week. Love you, bye.