SPEAKER_01: 0:00

Today's episode is being sponsored by the Seniorlogy Bundle. If you are a high school senior photographer or you want to be, this is the bundle that you need. It's only$97. And let me tell you some of the things that you get. I've known Leslie of Seniorlogy for years. We have been friends and collaborators many times, and we go way back. She has curated, I think 25 of us at least. And you're gonna learn about so many different things. And this is not just like a collection of free things that you'll never open and it'll just sit in your downloads folder. This is a collection of actual courses, things that are going to help you, things that are normally much higher priced. And you're getting all of them for$97. So it's one of my favorite bundles to contribute to because of the value that she embeds. This year you've got everything from senior shot lists to content planning, digital brain, power pack, ultimate posing guide, tax prep checklist, senior guy, photo shoot in a studio, bookkeeping templates, social caption kits, in-person sales starter kit, client experience bundle, senior team course. And I contributed how to create your own custom GPT because a lot of you guys have been wondering like, how do I actually make a custom GBT that actually works really well for me? So this is a class that would normally sell for$55 on its own. And again, all of these courses and all of these templates and all of these resources are normally higher priced. So$97, it's a no-brainer. You definitely need it. I'm gonna put the link in the show notes for you wherever you're watching or listening. Grab that, but it is only available for a short time. You've only got until January 28th to grab this. So get on it. Welcome to Tried and True with the Dash of Woo, where we blend rock solid tips with a little bit of magic. I'm Renee Bowen, your host, life and business coach, and professional photographer. At your service, we are all about getting creative, diving into your business, and playing with manifestation over here. So are you ready to get inspired and have some fun? Let's dive in. Hey friends, welcome back to Tried and True with a Dash of Woo. I'm your host, Renee Bowen. And today we're talking about something that I think every single entrepreneur hits at some point, but almost nobody names. You can build a business that looks successful, that feels successful, even is successful on paper. But underneath there's this quiet sense of misalignment, this nagging feeling that the way that you are working just doesn't feel like you anymore. And I think that's the moment you've built something that I call identity debt. Every time you say yes to things that don't match who you actually are now, you create this emotional interest that eventually comes due. And today's guest is the perfect person to explore this with. Karin Gillen helps outliers, leaders, and coaches build businesses that fit who they really are, not who they were three years ago, and not who their industry told them to be, but the version of them that's actually here now. Her work is rooted in counseling psychology, 15 years of coaching experience, and a belief that I love that business can be a force for good when the person leading it is grounded and free. It's like super aligned with everything that I talk about. And Karen has this energy that is so calm and so grounded. You guys are really, really going to enjoy getting to know her. And so today's conversation is about identity and freedom and the hidden costs that creatives pay when their businesses stop matching who they are. And I think this is going to land especially deeply for my photographers, my creatives, and honestly, any of you who are building something meaningful. So let's get into it. All right, Karin, I want to start with this idea of identity debt is kind of what I'm calling it. But it's basically what I'm seeing a lot in my audience. I mean, I felt it too, right? Like basically what happens when we keep building from old versions of ourselves. And then we wake up in a business that we don't really recognize or want, and maybe we don't even know what we want. But from your perspective, how do you see this show up in the people you work with?

SPEAKER_00: 4:22

I see it show up a lot of times in like empty success. So, like, oh, I did it. I thought that would feel different. Or I just worked my face off to make that happen and I am annoyed by it. Or, you know, it's like it's all that, and I know we kind of all manifest differently, right? Like some people are very specific and some people are more about feelings, but I think if you are in this identity debt, then when you get there, either it looks wrong or it feels wrong. And then we have to deal with whatever that is, which the problem is that takes so much energy, and you have to recover from that and then write the ship from there. So I'm I'm just like as fast as you can get to where you are right now and be here now, even if it means you break things, even if it means you change course, because I don't think we have the energy as like solopreneurs and creative people to go back and like clean so much up. Speaking from experience, of course.

SPEAKER_01: 5:24

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Same. I know. And I feel like a lot of creatives, especially, um, you know, I work with a lot of photographers too, who like we kind of fall into the business. That's what I always my my my metaphor for it. I'm like, I fell into photography because like I was good at it and people tripped over a camera one day. Literally. It was like, hey, can you do that for me and my kids? And I'm like, okay. You know, like a lot of people in creative businesses or just even like any business, I feel like you sort of are just doing your thing. You're doing it well, you're living in, you know, your joy. And then all of a sudden it's like, oh, wait, I think I can actually make a business at this. And then it starts this sort of like, you know, snowball effect. And then before you know it, it might have turned into something completely opposite from what you maybe have wanted, or maybe you've just outgrown it as well. I'm sure you see a lot of that too. So and I think a lot of us build businesses just in general from where we think we're supposed to be as well.

SPEAKER_00: 6:25

And what we think we can do or should do versus who we are or what we're here for. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 6:32

So speaking on that and that clarity, because clarity is something I talk a lot about too. Um, and you have like such a grounded presence, just so you guys know, like I've met Karin in person. So, like, she's like a human quailude. I'm gonna, I'm just gonna call your energy, it's so chill and grounded, and like I'm like, girl, I gotta be in your universe. So, just as in in just like a side note, um, it's not like this hyped up, like performative stuff. It's very calm. Where did that come from? Have you always been that way?

SPEAKER_00: 7:09

I think so. Because I'm the kid, I'm the little kid who everyone's like, you're like an old soul. I'm assuming that's what they meant.

SPEAKER_01: 7:17

What's your astrology? I gotta know.

SPEAKER_00: 7:19

What's your I'm an Aquarius?

SPEAKER_01: 7:21

Hmm. Uh that kind of does. That makes sense. Yeah. So was there a moment, I guess, where you realized you couldn't keep leading from an identity that didn't fit you? Because you said speak from experience.

SPEAKER_02: 7:36

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_00: 7:37

Yeah, definitely. I mean, one, I have this very clear memory. So when I um decided to be a life coach, I was very quickly met with an email that said, Who wants a 22-year-old life coach? And I was like, shoot, you know, my mom was not wrong about that. So I went and did, I got a whole master's in counseling psychology and I became a therapist. And in all of that, I get caught up. And I think this is what happens with a lot of us. We get caught up in the goals of the world we're in. And so I was like, I'm not just gonna be a good therapist, I'm gonna be a great therapist. And then I do it for one year and five months, take off on like an around the world honeymoon with my husband. And it wasn't until like the fourth country, I was sitting on a bed, he's in the shower, and I just had this moment of like, it's not fair for them and it's not fair for me. For me to be a therapist, it's not fair for me to want my therapy clients to be coaching clients, and it's not fair for me to have to be in a therapist role when I want to be a coach, right? So from that moment on, it was like, nope, now that we have this clarity, let's move forward with what's real. And so when we ended that trip three hours later, I was in coach training. But I went way in, right? I wasn't just gonna be a therapist so I could be a life coach. I forgot that I wanted to be a coach. I was all into this whole other life.

SPEAKER_01: 9:02

It's so interesting. I know I kind of feel like some of that happened to me too. I mean, I I did a little bit reverse. I didn't get a master's in psychology, I got a bachelor's, but I intended to get that master's. Like that was where I was going. And then I moved to LA on a whim, like just literally, like, oh, I just think I'm just gonna move to LA and met my husband, like in a bar, you know, two months later, and life took a very different turn. And I ended up going to massage therapy school instead, doing the whole like mind-body thing before anybody was really talking about that. It was like the 90s. And then I've always had, like, I've always had this like, should I go back to school? Should I, you know what I mean? That master's thing, right? Like, because I I felt, I've always felt that I wanted to, like, I there was a reason why I got into psychology. And then I got into photography, which is a whole different thing. So coming back to it as a coach years later, that was like, oh yeah, I kind of remember like I wanted to do this, but I didn't want to be like a therapist. I wanted to like do this. So, but I fell into it again. Like it was one of those, like, oh, people just automatically started asking me how I did what I did and realized very quickly they didn't just need a roadmap because they were really stuck in old patterns. So interesting how that happens and how I mean, it's very cool that you got like that clear download too, and that you were you were probably, I mean, I feel like since you were on this trip, you know, and like you were like open special circumstances and expansive. Yeah. Yeah. Like at the retreat, like I felt like I got so much more from that, literally just because I was open, I was relaxed. I my nervous system was calm and I was a little heavy. And so, like, even if you can find little bits and pieces of that, I think that would be a good thing for people listening. If you feel like you're kind of in this place, like give yourself some some some space to like happy and friendly drop in, right? Yeah, suggest like I know people can't just go off on a you know a world tour. That would be awesome. But like, what are some small things people can do so that we can tune in?

SPEAKER_00: 11:02

I think one thing is if you just do kind of like an elimination diet with any shoulds, because shoulds are oftentimes just holding up the weirdness, the constructs, or the these are the things I do just because I've always done them. Well, I should do that now because we do laundry on Sundays or like whatever. If you just consider like, what if I didn't do that? Like, what would open up? What would go wrong? What would be here? Like, what can I just let come in? Because I think it's when we really shift our normal habitual stuff, that's when the magic can find us. Because if we're in our patterns, we don't see as much, we don't feel as much, right? And like every single thing that you've said today about like, I fell into it, it just happened. Like those were all these big magical moments in your life. You're like, it just like that's how it works, right? So if we can disrupt ourselves enough to see a disruption that's good. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 12:01

Ooh, okay, yeah. I want to dig into that a little bit more because I mean, I just recorded like a whole solo episode kind of about that, like this staying comfortable. And like, it's easy to get into this, right? It's easy. We get into our routine, we sort of like just live hypnotically, and then we get into these like things, like you say, like we do this, we do this, we do this. And you know, there's I think there's some value to that for sure, especially depending on the personality type for people. But it also is kind of a slippery slope because that's sort of when you have that moment sometimes of wake, you're like, I woke up one day and realized I don't recognize myself anymore, or I don't know what I want to do. And you know, it's because you've sort of been like living hypnotically in that place, and it's that disruption, that intentional disruption that is necessary to propel you into this next place. Like for me, even that example, I literally just moved out of where I I mean, I picked up and moved with two giant dogs. I had no job, nothing, like no money. And I had to figure it out when I got here, or I was not gonna eat or have a place to live. I didn't have a safety net. And I feel like that's a big piece of it. I feel like you build a safety net, we're told to do that. And then that safety net becomes too much comfort. So, how can somebody in that place, let's say it's a woman in you know, her 40s who's like having these shifts and changes in her life? Maybe her kids are getting older and all that, and she's kind of feeling like either I really wish I had followed through on a dream that I had, or I don't really love my business anymore and I don't know what that means. You know, how can they disrupt themselves in small ways to start to propel these changes, these things to drop in?

SPEAKER_00: 13:49

I think it's interesting that it's when we have the safety net that we start to live from fear. Right? Because people are like, well, I had nothing to lose, so I went for it. It's like, what if you create the perfect launch pad and safety for yourself, and then you act like you have nothing to lose? I think we have to do that. And I think one of the ways that you could do that is through living in alignment, which is the most disruptive thing that you can do. Like people talk about alignment, like, oh, new yoga pants. Like, no, that's not what this is. Alignment is knowing, understanding, and living from your values, even when other people have opinions and thoughts about that, even when it means not doing what your family's doing for the holidays, even when it means quitting your business because you know that it's killing your wholeheartedness and you can't live that way. Not in alignment, you can't, right? So for me, I would say it's figure out what are my core values? What am I here to live from on purpose? And not the core values that are just the uh, well, I don't want to be like my parents, so I'm not gonna live like that. That's not core values. Yeah. These are the ones that call you forth. So for me, mine are wholeheartedness, spaciousness, and integrity. And I'm like, what can I do that encompasses those things that allows them to breathe? And when I find that I'm really stuck or things aren't flowing, or things just feel hard in a way that I'm not used to or don't want them to, it's because something's messed up with those. It's like, oh, it's because I'm staying in a relationship or a community where I'm not wholeheartedly there. I'm just in because I think it's a good idea because I should be in communities like that or whatever it might be, right? So I think our values are one of the easiest hacks to do the hardest work to make life more simple.

SPEAKER_01: 15:45

Yeah, that's really like in and of itself super powerful. And I've also seen so many people struggle with trying to figure out what those are because they are working from a story that isn't theirs, like you mentioned before. Like, okay, it's not your parents necessarily. But a lot of people, even in their 40s, into their 50s, are just now realizing that's not what I wanted to do. Why did I spin up for that? Right. That programming, that whatever you want to call it. Everybody's got a little bit of something, right? Even if you had like a fantastic childhood, yeah. It's just sort of the nature of it. And I feel like that can be really, really jarring for some people to wake up and realize I like I don't want this life. Yeah, I don't. And so I think too, it's such a great spot to be in, too, right? It's perspective. That's how you look at it, obviously. Because it does cause you um that discomfort, which is necessary, but it's also it's such a great opportunity if you choose to look at it that way, right? To sit with it and that like really being in it, like you said, okay, alignment, and I want to touch back on that really quick. Alignment's not about because I talk about that a lot too, like alignment in general, and it isn't about, oh, rainbows and unicorns, and you know, everything is flowing to me. Okay, yeah, there's like, we all want to be in this place of like living from our resonance and and and being our truest and highest selves. Like I feel like most people would agree that that would be an ideal situation for them. However, there's some stuff that when you are working to get into this alignment that is gonna come up.

unknown: 17:34

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 17:35

And it's got to come up and out so that you can move through it, right? So, what are some more questions that people can ask themselves when they're in that phase? And and like, why do you think it's so hard for entrepreneurs to give themselves permission to evolve too? That might go hand in hand.

SPEAKER_00: 17:53

I think the first thing that you want to do is um give yourself permission to do nothing so that you can actually see and look around and like notice what's here, right? Because a lot of times it's like, if I'm having this thought, that means I have to blow up my business, leave my marriage, move my town, like whatever. Like a lot of times it's these big sweeping things will come up. You don't have to do any of it. And I think giving your nervous system the permission to calm down and be like, hey, I'm gonna do some exploration here. And we don't have to change a thing, but I am gonna look around and we're gonna be safe and fine. Because you need to look around, right, before you make big decisions. And I think it's really good to do this with someone else. Like if it's feeling a little iffy, like go hire Renee or go hire somebody like me or go to your therapist or whatever. Because it's super hard when we're so wrapped up in how all of what we've done has created the safety that we have or the success that we have, which is why I think it's hard to leave, right? So I don't want to quit that business because it did X, Y, and Z for me, which means I'm choosing to kill off a potential future instead of kill off a present and a past, right? So either way, I'm killing something. I think we have to be honest about that. But I'm choosing to kill off what might happen because I want to hang on to what I have, which makes sense, right? We want to like most people want to keep what they have. It doesn't mean it's the right thing to do, but I think it's good just to be honest with yourself about what's happening. Like, okay, am I willing to kill off what I have in order to see what might happen? Like, do I trust myself enough? And then that's about building that relationship with yourself. Am I a trustworthy person? In the past, when I've done big things, have I made it work? Am I someone who lands on my feet? Am I resourced? Is there a van down by the river for me? Or do I have people who will catch me if I really mess this up? Right. But it has like it has to be this open, wide eyed exploration before it has to be any action.

SPEAKER_01: 19:55

Yeah. That place of curiosity, getting curious, poking holes and things. Wondering. And it's so hard for a lot of people, depending on the person, but I feel like we're also sold this whole idea of, you know, do it now. It's like, no, some things take a while, right? Some things have been bubbling for a while. I mean, I've kind of been in that place for the last five years, like literally since COVID. And I think a lot of people probably.

SPEAKER_00: 20:21

There's been a lot of bubbling in the background for the last five years.

SPEAKER_01: 20:24

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Totally. But like, you know, I remember I was thinking about this the other day. I was like, oh man, 2021. I was like, I was on fire. I was, I, I was, I was like in survival mode. But looking back on it now, you know what I mean? Like, yeah, it was not what I thought it was then, right? Like I thought I was in, like, I got this, I'm gonna make it happen. I'm so excited. Like, I was very enthusiastic about my businesses, both of them. And I was like, yeah, this is all good. But looking back now, I'm like, oh, that was a trauma response. And I was like really still in fight or flight a while. And that's when it first started kind of coming in. Like early 2021 is when I first started going, I don't, I don't really know what this is gonna look like. I'm not really, I don't know what I want anymore. And it was just bubbling. And then every year since then, it's just gotten stronger and stronger and stronger. And it's still not exactly there. Like, I still don't have like the exact picture. I have an idea and I have a feeling, right? And I always say, like, okay, for me, it has to start with that feeling. And I've I've finally gotten to this place where I'm like, it's it's all good. Like it's happening the way it's supposed to. Obviously, the timing, the timing is what it needs to be. And I need to just kind of like get out of the way here and stop trying to make it happen. And inevitably, every single time I like shift into that, good shit comes in, like always. So I have proof, right?

SPEAKER_00: 21:54

Yeah. But what is it you have to do for yourself to like get into that space of trust?

SPEAKER_01: 22:00

Yeah. Um, for me specifically, I have to constantly, because I mean I'm talking about this all the time, right? Like, or with two other people, whether it's on the podcast, whether it's in my coaching, whatever, I gotta take my own medicine. That's a really big one for me. It's like I I do learn a lot through teaching. I think most of us kind of do, like it's just a great way to learn something too. But for me, I gotta get quiet. That's that's the main thing. I gotta get quiet. And meaning I need really to be away. I have to be physically. That's why the retreat was also really good for me. It was that was the first time in a really long time that I had been away, away from your sympathy by myself, literally, like you guys, or by the pool, and I was like, I am not trying to be antisocial. I need to be on this beach alone. Like I just needed two hours. You know what I mean? And it was very, very, very healing for me. But I have to do more of that on my own here. It's finding it here. And so what I've been doing, just for example, since I've been back, is you know, I took a lot of videos for myself when I was on that beach, like long videos, like eight minutes of just me in the water, my feet, and though, and I will literally just listen to that. I'll watch it and I'll just meditate on that. Like I'm back there, I'm there, I'm still there, I'm still there. You know what I mean? Just to sort of like get it back in my body. Um, and that's been really, really helpful for me as far as like the the process, like trusting that process. Um and and just reminding myself that the timing is perfect. But for people who have a hard time with that, and they're like, but you know, like, what if I want to burn my business down today? We know that what you just said is okay, before action, you got to sit in some curiosity. Um, and that could look different for a lot of people. And I know you talk a lot about freedom, right? And not like this like fantasy of like working from the beach all the time. That'd be great, but it, you know, it not always can happen. But like real freedom. So how do you specifically work with people to build freedom into their businesses? Because freedom is one of my core values, and I love to talk about.

SPEAKER_00: 24:18

Yeah. I think the way to be free is that Dolly Parton quote. Figure out who you are and do it on purpose. Yeah. And that's like that's what I did. This is this is my most free life because if I could just get up and hang out and ask people questions all day and get to coach all day and have people come to me and I could just hang, like that would be it, right? And so, how do I set my life up so that it's as much like that kind of free lifestyle as possible? And for me, what I I really like to look at with people is show me the paths and the through lines of success where things have come easy for you, where life has been in flow. And how do we recreate that no matter what it is you're trying to create? Because I think it all leaves clues. And generally, the way people had success in high school, in careers, in jobs, whatever, it can look the same in business. There's some thread in there that can translate into the way that you generate clients or do your marketing or show up for your business. And I think we have to slow down enough to at least see what those are and use them for us rather than just try to do the latest like marketing trend that might be completely opposite of who we are.

SPEAKER_01: 25:31

That's a big one. I see a lot of people, well, I need just I need a new funnel. I just need this, or I need to be on the shoulds, like you were talking about before. It's very easy to fall into that. So looking back then, right? So looking for that through line of even, even just, and I I talk about this a lot too, just in general, especially with creatives. What did you love to do as a kid? Right. What brought you joy? Like, even if it's stupid. Like for me, when I think about it, it's so funny. I used to sit in my room with my mom's typewriter. This is so funny, as a kid, and I would type out like lesson plans, like, but I didn't want to be a teacher. I've never wanted to be a teacher, like never. Like that never came into my reality, but I loved typing things out and like, you know, like playing office and doing all that sort of stuff, right? And writing. I loved to write. Like I would journal even before journaling was a thing. And I still have a lot of these journals from my youth. And I love looking back on them. I some of them I'm like, oh my God, like I have to tell somebody where these are in my closet because I don't want my kids to find these. Someone needs to throw them away. No, a hundred percent. Because I journaled like all through my 20s when I was in LA.

SPEAKER_00: 26:47

I have I have the same problem. I have to figure out what to do with this box.

SPEAKER_01: 26:51

We need to figure this out. It's like every time I go in my closet, I'm like, you know, there's some gold in there and I don't want to get rid of them. But uh, there's some stuff that I I wrote down that I was like, maybe, maybe my kids don't need to know about that. Um do, whatever. They're adults now. They can maybe handle it. But all that to say, do you think that, well, first of all, do you think that looking back like that is helpful when people are trying to figure this out?

SPEAKER_00: 27:20

Yeah. I mean, if I look back at my childhood, I was organizing and selling. That's hilarious. Like, I loved a good organization thing. And I loved, like, I would sell my friends, would come over and be like, they'd be like, Oh, I like your stereo. I'd be like, Well, do you want to buy it?

SPEAKER_01: 27:36

Stop it. That is hilarious. That's how my literature anything. He was selling like rabbits because we live out in the middle of the country, right? He would raise rabbits, he would raise them and I and then sell them to people to like eat. And I'm like, You're eight years old. What are you doing? Like, and now he runs several businesses and is effortless at it.

SPEAKER_00: 27:57

Yeah, see, it leaves clues. And I think about how did I get every job my entire life except for one? It was all because somebody knew somebody or somebody knew me and they recommended me or they called me up for it or whatever. One time I interviewed and got a random job, but every other job in my entire life, relationship base. And guess how my clients come in? Relationships. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 28:22

That is so cool. I love that. I love the clues. Yeah. I mean, and people just really need to also, I feel like, be open to even look at that, right? Because like if you're thinking of fight or flight and everything is like right here, you can't access that information at the end of the day. Um, so what about that? Like people who are living in fight or flight, this nervous system regulation. Let's kind of talk about that for a second and how that is a very important piece, we know. Um, and how people can get out of that cycle. I mean, I work a lot with the unconscious mind. I know that, you know, like you've got so much training on this as well. What do you feel like makes a big difference, especially for like the creative mind, that the many gen who's like constantly going?

SPEAKER_00: 29:06

I mean, I think this is where I kind of maybe disagree with people in our field selling coaching, selling change work to people who are stuck in fight or flight.

SPEAKER_02: 29:16

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 29:16

It's like because that's the only job that they have to do. The only thing, your number one job is to figure out what's going on and how do I get my nervous system calmed down so that I can just live my life.

SPEAKER_02: 29:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 29:28

And I think that's the first step before any kind of change work or big building of anything else. Because otherwise you're going to drag that with you and you're not going to have a clear line to whatever it is that needs to be built or wants to be built, right? So that's sort of like if the kitchen is on fire, you don't remodel the living room.

SPEAKER_01: 29:47

It's so true. It's like the reason I went back and got coaching certifications, literally. It's like people were coming to me for business strategy. How do you make so much money doing what you do? And I'm like, well, I can tell you. And I was telling people and I was giving them this like, you know, business coaching, this like roadmap, they weren't doing it. They weren't doing it. They couldn't implement it.

unknown: 30:09

It's like, what?

SPEAKER_01: 30:09

What's going on? I think you're right about that. I feel like until you deal with that and you sit with that and you deal with the things that we've been talking about on this podcast so far, this identity and like really tuning in to it's a deeper sense of purpose in your specific, you know, way. And it's a very, very personal thing. Until that happens, I really don't feel like I mean, no amount of strategy is gonna really help you.

SPEAKER_00: 30:37

Like you're knowing, but you'll just be like learned in your brain, but not in your body.

SPEAKER_01: 30:43

And I feel like it also makes people feel like shit because they're like, well, that's how that's that cycle of staying stuck, right? Like, well, I have all this information, I know what I'm supposed to do. Why am I not doing it? Yeah, why am I not getting out of my own way? How many times have you heard that?

SPEAKER_00: 30:59

Yeah. And I've, you know, I've been coaching for 15 years, and one of the things I've seen, there's just been a few times where this has happened, like literally less than five, where it's when you're giving somebody everything and you see this like beautiful, capable, skilled, amazing human being in front of you, and everything they're trying isn't work, nothing's landing. Those are the times where after that happens for a little bit, it's like, I think it's time to bring a therapist on board. That's the like, because we can see how amazing and capable these people are, and they know they are too. And it's so frustrating to have nothing work. But it's like when you just keep running into a brick wall, that's when I'm like, I think there's a little more going on here. Let's let's bring a therapist onto the team or go see them for a while and come back when you're done. I'll be here. Like, there's you just need a different kind of support right then.

SPEAKER_01: 31:47

Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. I love when my clients already have therapists. That's like one of my favorites. Yeah. Like, oh that's great. This is so nice. Because first of all, I already know that you're on board with it and you're you're on the same page, right? And that's a big piece of it. And just on that same note that you were talking about as far as like coaches selling transformation, I don't know about you, but even just in the last year or so, I have been on a lot of, you know, discovery alignment calls with potential coaching clients who have talked a lot about how they even have trauma from being in some coaching containers because it either wasn't like they didn't, they didn't realize that that's what they were signing up for kind of thing. Um, and it wasn't nervous system supportive at all.

SPEAKER_00: 32:40

Yeah, I've been seeing that for like the last six years or so.

SPEAKER_01: 32:43

Yeah.

unknown: 32:43

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 32:44

And it's a hard spot to be in because it really does dissolve a lot of trust and self-trust as well. Yeah. Um, but so if somebody is listening and they're in that position, what would you say to that person in that position?

SPEAKER_00: 32:57

I would say that you are correct. What happened to you and the way you feel about it is true. That there's a lot of people. First of all, there's a lot of people in business calling stuff coaching that isn't. It's educational product and it's info businesses calling themselves coaching businesses. But I think what we saw a lot of is people setting really big revenue goals for themselves and then figuring out the math equation to get there. And it has to be this number of people to do this number of products and then pushing to hit their goals, but losing people in the meantime, meaning they aren't showing up to the calls when they said they would. They aren't delivering the product that they sold. Maybe the people are really good marketers, but they're not actually great practitioners. I've seen that a lot, and that those folks were doing a lot of harm. So I think the main thing is just to know that, like, yeah, that happened and it really sucked. And every single one of us out here in this field of coaching deals with that on every single sales call we have because anyone who's buying coaching has pretty much been impacted in some way. Yeah. Um, and it's a bummer, but I also think it's a big opportunity for people like you and me and everybody listening to just be just that level of integrity of I'm going to tell you who I am and I'm my behavior is going to match that. I'm going to tell you what's going to happen in this program and I'm going to show up and deliver it. Or I'm going to keep you, you know, in the loop if something's going to change. If we just do that, I, you know, I think our businesses have the opportunity to be healing modalities in that secondary way.

SPEAKER_01: 34:32

I agree. I'm really big on that. I want people to feel like one of my things is that I just no matter what, I want people to really feel seen where they are. Yeah. Um, because where you are is just where you are. And we already have enough unconscious programming that beats the shit out of us on a daily because we don't really need to go somebody else to reinforce that. But sometimes, like if you've been in those containers too, I tell people, first of all, everything you said, yes, like you're right. Also, what did you get from it? What information, what information is there? Because I'm not saying it, you know, needed to happen, but at the same time, okay, it did. So what kind of just information can you glean from it going forward? And it's information you didn't have before.

SPEAKER_00: 35:22

Yeah. And if you did pay for it, I like getting some learning from it, you know. Yeah. Like there is there's stuff for us to learn everywhere. I don't necessarily like some of the ways we have to learn, but you know, we've all we've all been through the experiences.

SPEAKER_01: 35:35

Yeah, absolutely. So if somebody's listening right now and they're like, okay, I think I'm really deep in this like identity debt situation where I'm just sort of in this place of not really knowing where I'm supposed to be, quote unquote supposed to be, you know, or where I, or maybe I'm in a place that I never thought I'd be, right? Maybe you're like in your late 40s or even early 50s, and you're like, I did not think my life was gonna look like this. Um, and I don't really want the rest of whatever time I have left to continue on this path. What's something they can do this week to get back into this alignment place that we've already established is not gonna be super comfortable? Um but what are some things that people can actually implement now? I like people to have some tangible takeaways.

SPEAKER_00: 36:25

I think just listen to your yeses and your no's. So, like, even if it's like no, I don't want Thai food, like just say so. If you're like, no, I will not be wearing those jeans that are half a size too small, then do not wear them. Like if you're saying no to discomfort, say no to the discomfort. If you have a yes for something, even if it doesn't make sense, let yourself have the yes.

SPEAKER_01: 36:48

That's kind of like, remember that movie? What was it called? Yes man years ago? Yeah, Jim Carrey or something like that.

SPEAKER_00: 36:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 36:55

I think about that a lot. I'm like, oh, there's something to that, right? There's something Life as improv. Yeah, it's like, well, what if I just said yes to shit that I didn't normally say yes to? Right. How would that that also, I mean, obviously within reason. Um, but that could be a fun little practice and a game to play with yourself too, as far as like, okay, I'm gonna go ahead and say yes to this thing that I normally wouldn't do because I'm putting myself in an uncomfortable situation so that I can be a little triggered and see what happens. And I like it, take little, little, little small steps like that. I think that's kind of a fun little game to play.

SPEAKER_00: 37:33

Yeah, it's like micro disruptions. And I think with like these daily habits and routines, if we can do it there, then it just gets us warmed up to do it in bigger ways.

SPEAKER_01: 37:41

Exactly. I mean, I think that's like the whole coplunge thing, right? Like that's what that's about. Is like, I mean, yes, it's supposed to be good for your nervous system too, but it's about like making yourself uncomfortable and not negotiating with your unconscious mind. I'm never gonna do it, but I do other I love it. A lot of people do, a lot of people do, and I'm not, yeah, I I'm just for me. I'm like, no, that I I can do other things. I do other things like myself. So find what worked for you, but I think that that is that primes you, it primes you to continuously look for other ways that you can like spark the growth. So yeah, it can be a really fun thing. My husband loves it too. So that's it's his thing. All right. So before we wrap up, I want to kind of touch a little bit on staying in business for the long haul, because this is like it can be whether you're a coach or you work in a creative industry or whatever, maybe you know, doing it for a long time, like we were talking about before, and maybe realizing it may not be where you want to continue going. Okay, but for those people who are like, no, this is really I I want, I want to still do this. I just maybe have lost a little bit of the spark there. Um, so staying in that business for the long haul, what helps people stay in the game and not without burning out?

SPEAKER_00: 39:05

I think that when businesses are new, we get so much of our dopamine from them. And when we go through transition, we get a lot of dopamine from changing things. So if you want to stay in a business and let it be this beautifully boring, repetitive, profitable thing, which is fantastic, you just have to get your dopamine somewhere else. Like I think you got to think about okay, am I a knitter? Am I a surfer? Like, do I like what is it that I'm gonna move into in my non-business life? Because hopefully at this point, your business is making room for you to do more than just go to work so that you can be fulfilled and interested and interesting. And it doesn't, that energy of wanting to churn things up doesn't break what's working.

SPEAKER_01: 39:49

Yeah, it's so easy to like lose your shit. You like lose yourself in the stuff, right? Like doing your business, you love your business, and then all of a sudden you're like, I don't have any hobbies. Anymore. So yeah. Like, what is my hobby? Coffee? I think that might be my hobby. Free coffee. Yeah. And there's all those memes that are like, oh yeah, I got into my my business for freedom. And you know, here you are working 80 plus hours a week. Um I I do feel like like we're we're kind of having a collective shift on that, which is nice. And I think that we're gonna be moving more into that. But that's not sustainable, like for most people. I mean, maybe there's like a rare person who can who can do that, but I don't think that's the sustainable thing to do. So finding that dopamine, I I like the way that you framed that because it is more than just like, oh, what's my hobby? And so that could be just dismissed very easily. It's like, well, I don't have time for hobbies, or blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. But how are you finding your dopamine intentionally and not from your phone? Right, right.

SPEAKER_00: 40:52

Beyond the scroll. Yeah. What are you getting?

SPEAKER_02: 40:55

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_01: 40:55

Yeah. Really good question. I love that. And you have something for people as well. Uh, tell us about the freebie that you're gonna give people here because it has a lot to do with what we've been talking about today. And I think it'll be really helpful.

SPEAKER_00: 41:08

Yeah, it's 30 days of clarity. So it's one question a day, deliver to your inbox. And the goal of every single question is clarity and getting you from like, I'm not sure what's going on to I know exactly what's happening.

SPEAKER_01: 41:21

I love it. You guys know how much I love talking about clarity. So yeah, grab that. I'm gonna put the link in the show notes for you. And then, Karin, where do you like to connect with people best if they want to reach out to you?

SPEAKER_00: 41:33

Instagram. Karin Gillen on Instagram. Cool.

SPEAKER_01: 41:36

We'll link that too. Thank you so much for being here. This was super fun. You're always talking to.

SPEAKER_00: 41:42

Good to see you. Thank you for having me.

SPEAKER_01: 41:44

Karin, thank you for bringing your grounded wisdom and your honesty to this conversation today. Here's what I want everybody who is listening to take away today. First, your business is only as aligned as the identity that you're building it from. If you're working from an old version of you, it's gonna feel harder than it needs to. And also, alignment is not comfortable. It's not all rainbows and unicorns. It's about those little minor disruptions we talked about. The second one is freedom isn't something you earn, it's something that you design. And you deserve a business. It expands you, not drains you. The third one is that calm leadership is not a vibe, it's a practice, it's a nervous system regulation. It's clarity, it's choosing from grounded energy. And then lastly, you are allowed to evolve. Your business is supposed to evolve with you. I'm always talking about how your business is a reflection of how you really feel. So I want you to give yourself permission to update the things that no longer fit. And if this episode hits something in you, share it. Send it to a friend you know is quietly questioning everything. And tell us your biggest takeaway. Tag me and Karan on Instagram so that we can celebrate it with you. And as always, keep showing up with curiosity and courage because the version of you who's leading from identity and freedom and calm is already in motion. You're just trying to catch up to her energetically. And reach out if you need help with any of this. All the information is below in the show notes, and you can always find me in the DMs on Instagram at Renee Bowen. Love you guys. Bye.