SPEAKER_01: 0:00

Welcome to Tried and True with the Dash of Wu, where we blend rock solid tips with a little bit of magic. I'm Renee Bowen, your host, life and business coach, and professional photographer. At your service, we are all about getting creative, diving in your business, and playing with manifestation over here. So are you ready to get inspired and have some fun? Let's dive in. Let's talk about high-functioning burnout. So, first of all, welcome back to Tried and True with the Dash of Whoo. I'm your host, Renee Bowen. And today we are diving into this topic of high-functioning burnout. And it might look and feel a little different than our traditional definition or examples of burnout. And my guest today is phenomenal for this topic. Okay, so her name is Ashley McDonald, and she is a therapist and a nervous system first business mentor for high-achieving women who want lives in businesses that feel as good as they look. And she's awesome. I met Ashley in a mixer mine that I am a part of. We went to, I actually didn't meet her until we were at the retreat in person. And one of those meetings where I was like immediately like, okay, yeah, my people, like you totally get this. And I just adore her. She has this really unique blend of psychological depth and embodied strategy. And she helps women expand their emotional capacity, receive more of what they truly desire, and actually feel the richness of the life that they've built with self-led momentum. So she speaks my language across the board. And she's just a really great person in general to talk to you about any of this stuff. But we go deep into like what this high functioning burnout looks like, feels like, um, signs that you know you may be missing. And more importantly, what to do about it, right? But as you'll find out during this conversation, it's less about adding more to your plate as we go into the underpinnings of like why this even happens in the first place. Um, those of us who do a lot of things and wear a lot of hats and feel like we're constantly on a hamster wheel, I think that uh let's just put it this way, I think a lot of you guys are going to identify with this conversation. And it might be a little uncomfy. I'm not gonna lie. Like it might show you some stuff, it might trigger you a little bit. And that's okay. I just want to remind you like you're meant to hear this. I really believe that you know you come to these things when when you are meant to find them. So if this sparks anything in you, if this triggers anything in you, I just invite you to approach that with compassion and uh neutrality if you can't get all the way to compassion. Don't beat yourself up about it, right? Or just get curious about it and see where it takes you. So let's get into it. So Ashley, you and I could talk probably for hours about that messy middle of entrepreneurship and what it's like, you know, to really want to do all the things, to do all the things and to get, you know, burnt out. So what I really want to explore today is what a lot of my clients are experiencing. I know a lot of your people experience, and maybe even without realizing what they're experiencing is this high functioning uh burnout. And I know that we can identify with this too. So um I want to definitely dig into it, but before we kind of get to the depth of all of that, how would you personally define high functioning burnout in the women that you work with?

SPEAKER_00: 3:51

Oh, well, I think for one, a lot of us are always very convinced that burnout looks like completely, you know, degrading into nothing, not being able to do anything, not being able to get out of bed, not, you know, I think we picture it like this too because there's so many stories told. You've heard the stories where somebody's like, I hit burnout and I was in the hospital and I had adrenal fatigue. And I am not saying that none of this is true. It's very, very true. The difference with that sort of burnout and high-functioning burnout is that you can't always see it with the naked eye. And it exists kind of in your day-to-day and and how you're existing. And it does so in sort of the franensic energy that you feel beneath the surface of how you're operating. It does so in the internal dialogue that happens as you're kind of processing life. Um, it does so in the ways that you operate in general, you know. So the ways that you might tackle a million tasks at once and not really adhere to your own needs, recognize kind of what you're feeling. And yes, there is some of the more traditional, like, you know, skipping meals, not getting good sleep, like that kind of stuff does show up as well. But I find that high-functioning burnout is a little bit more mysterious and therefore even a little bit more dangerous, um, might I say, even though I know that sounds a little aggressive and dramatic, but it's dangerous because oftentimes it just piles upon one another because we aren't aware of it, right? And so it's not what some people would suspect is what leads to a burnout. Not at all. Like your body will, I always say that your body pays the bills here, regardless of what's happening in your life. Like at some point, your body's gonna pay the bill, right? So you're gonna have to show up for that energy at some point. So it's not necessarily that, it's often after the fact. So I find a lot of people who are dealing with high functioning burnout have already hit the traditional state of burnout, did whatever band-aid sort of solution they thought would solve the problem, and now are living with high functioning burnout.

SPEAKER_01: 5:56

Yeah, because then it just becomes like your baseline. You don't even know you're you're operating from there. You're like, well, this is just my the way, you know, I just have to do it, right? Like I have to get through it.

SPEAKER_00: 6:07

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 6:07

And then you get stuck. And so, and you know, like as a therapist, you know, like that fight or flight, like living in that fight or flight and that nervous system dysregulation for so long. Yeah, you know, you have to retrain your unconscious mind to remember, oh yeah, this is not, this is not really what it's supposed to feel like. Right.

SPEAKER_00: 6:28

Right. I mean, I think that's the biggest thing is become such a norm for people uh that they don't know any different. And it's it's taxing, but traditionally, people who are experiencing high high functioning burnout, I was actually telling a client today, we were kind of digging through something that she's been dealing with, and I had to have like the hard truth therapist talk of like, where where can you take radical responsibility? Because what she was saying was like, oh my gosh, I didn't get any help. People are finally helping. And we had to kind of touch face with so many of those of us who deal with high functioning burnout are, you know, identifying as high achieving, are not the kind of people who look like they need help. Right. And so we heard this client and I were talking about how, like, oftentimes when you have that persona, myself included, you know, most of the time I hit this point of like, why does nobody care? And then somebody who loves me a lot goes, Well, you looked like you had it all together, like you looked fine. I didn't even know you needed help. You know, there's so many other people that give off this, like, I can't do this. Not traditionally those like us who have experienced high functioning burnout, because whether it comes from the way that we were raised or experiences that we've had that have told us, like, hey, you have to be able to take care of things, you have to be strong. This is how you're valued, this is how you're loved, or just the survival instincts of like when I'm not a hundred percent on and caring for myself, the world kind of goes up.

SPEAKER_01: 7:52

It falls apart, literally. And I remember saying that so many times, like so many times in my life. Like that that phrase right there. It's like, well, if I don't do everything, yeah, everybody falls apart, like literally the whole family, the business, blah, blah, blah, everything. And it's like, okay, but is that true? Right? Is that really, really true? And you do, you have to get like super real with yourself or have someone like you get super real with you. Um, because uh we will continue on that autopilot. You know, like I always say, uh, and you know this too, like we're gonna do more to avoid pain than seek pleasure always. It's just unfortunately the way we're wired. And then you get stuck in this doing the doing, the engine just turns and turns. And uh it tends to also be the case where you know, that can ask for help or something, right? So of course, nobody on the outside looking in, they're gonna think, oh you you've got it together. And you talk a lot about like lives that look good on the outside, but that feel really not good on the inside. And this is, I think, what you mean by that. So when did you first realize, like when you went through that, like kind of paint that picture for the listeners? Because I feel like that really I think it helps hearing examples. I can definitely chime in on mine. Yeah. But what did that feel like for you?

SPEAKER_00: 9:17

Well, my my high-functioning burnout was disguised as perfectionism. And so I, you know, given a little history here back in 2022, I ripped my kids out of school, uh, sold everything that I owned, and we went to go travel the world full time. Um, decided I was going to homeschool them, build my business. And that year was just jam-packed full of adventure and excitement. And I created all these courses and programs and my business was thriving. I think I got to somewhere around half a million dollars in revenue that year. I mean, it was just a really extraordinary year. And then after that year, we decided to land a little bit more stationary just for a little bit. I had taken on this belief, this narrative in my head, like, one, I can't possibly make this kind of money living this lifestyle. Like that feels wrong. There's something about that that's not right. This is hindsight, by the way. I did not see at the time. Also, um, if I'm gonna make this kind of money, I have I have to have a way more um organized, but also like pretty business, you know. Like I didn't have the fuck, everything I did was totally intuitive. It was like, ah, fuck it. I'm gonna create this. This is amazing. Oh my god, you know, everything I did. And it was it was working, but then something shifted in me where I was like, I'm not worthy of this kind of success without doing it the right way. And so the following year, I settled my family and had all this time. So I went from having like 10 hours a week max, you know, I was a travel agent, I was a homeschooler, all the things, right? To having my kids were in school. And for the first time in my whole life, they were all three in school. I have three kids. And um, I'm like, oh my God, now I'm what we all do, right? Like now I've got so much time, like I'm gonna be a bajillionaire by the end of the month, you know, and no doubt. And I took on so much because I thought that's what I was supposed to do. I hired a team of like seven or eight people, which yeah, sounds like delegation. Really, it's just extra management. Like, let's be really honest. And the the feeling of that many people's livelihoods, you know, has a weight of its own. Um, started to create the funnels. And I went from like really messy Thrivecart checkouts that I would create while laying on the beach to like full-blown sales pages with the best messaging ever and you know, all the things. And so I'm imagine about a year of doing that and thinking this, you know, kind of driving down that lane of like I have to do it the right way. The only way I can hold this kind of success, the only way I'm worthy of it, the only way that I can keep it. I got grippy. I got, I got efforty, I got grippy, I got scared, I got, you know, perfectionistic. And it was at the end of that year, so 2023, when I had had multiple conversations with my husband, you know, towards Q3, Q4, of like, I'm unwell. Like I feel like a crazy person. Like I feel like things that had worked before weren't working. Um, the like the motivation and energy, that kind of stuff. But then also, you know, full transparency. I it's like I was blind for so long and all of a sudden I looked in the mirror and I was 50 pounds overweight and I was hiding behind baggy. I was just, I'd lost myself because I was so laser focused in just being good at everything and being the best at everything, right? And so uh in 2024, I actually shut my business down on January 1st for five months, and I took a five-month sabbatical. And that was partially kind of of the the practice what you preach dialogue of, you know, for a while it was honestly imposter syndrome of like, I can't, I can't experience this. I'm literally the queen of like preventing this for others. And trust me, this I've had traditional burnout. This was my high functioning burnout. So I had I had preached from the burnout state and taught from the burnout state. And so yeah, I took a five-month sabbatical and that ended the middle of last year. So I've been back for about a year and a half. And yeah, it it kind of felt like being dropped into the middle of the ocean, if I'm being honest, because I came back as an entirely different person. The way that I do business, the way that I do life, the way that I approach everything, because I had to unhook entirely from ambition being my North Star. And it was because I grew up with a lot of trauma, a lot, a lot of trauma. And I took on this narrative very early on that like the only way to protect myself and prevent my family from experiencing what I dealt with was to ensure the success of us collectively, to ensure we had the money and the status and all the things that like I didn't grow up having. And so yeah, I had to unhook. I had to unhook massively.

SPEAKER_01: 14:04

Wow. Well, I mean, okay, I got there's a there's a lot of places I want to go with this because I feel like I mean, I can definitely identify with so many pieces to that. I also know a lot of people listening can, because you know, that is definitely something I hear a lot of is this perfectionism, and people don't realize that that is usually masking something else. 100% saying it has to be masking exactly this, but like it definitely is showing up for some reason, right?

SPEAKER_00: 14:33

It's a secondary emotion, just like anger is secondary. It's not your primary emotion. When you feel anger, when you feel perfectionistic, when you feel even anxiety, these are secondary emotions to a root cause that's deeper than that.

SPEAKER_01: 14:45

Exactly. Yeah. And I want to talk a little bit about that. I want to talk a little bit about like what it takes to rewire, restructure, whatever word you want to call it, heal that, right? Because, like for you, okay, yeah, I'm sure you didn't just like unplug for five months and do nothing. Oh God, no.

SPEAKER_00: 15:07

Oh, trust me, immediately what happened is I just transferred one to-do list for a different kind of to-do list. And it took a hot second to realize like I became my to-do list. So my health, my weight loss, my, you know, nervous system, chiropractic visits, my polyvagal, you know, I mean, the things that I did, I mean, they were great. And I just completely transferred all of my I will never stop moving energy to my body and to my my wellness, which is interesting because I will say, you will never be healed. And I say that with so much love. I want to squeeze every person when I say it. You will never be healed. Healing is a journey, it's an experience. Every day I'm embarking on new versions of that kind of healing. I I don't believe that it's required for everybody, but for me, it was really obvious that I needed to find an identity outside of my work.

SPEAKER_01: 16:02

Ding, ding, ding. Ding, ding. Like I think so many people, so many women can identify with that, like myself included. Yeah. And it it's insidious because it happens without you knowing. Like you don't, you don't do this on purpose. You don't like, you know, I didn't, I didn't start a business or multiple businesses so that I could lose myself in them intentionally. Quite like exactly. Exactly. And like, I mean, honestly, I mean, I felt like I was losing myself and my kids. So totally, you know, I need something for myself, right? Like what's gonna be what's gonna light me up? And then all of a sudden it's like, oh shit, like I uh I can't do anything else, right? Like I'm thinking about it when I'm going to 47 or I wake up in the middle of the night and it's constantly on loop, then it's like, okay, this is this is a lot. And it's it's so I don't know. I feel like it might be easier for certain people, like you mentioned. Like obviously, if you do have trauma or whatever kind of programming, you know, because I wouldn't say that I had a traumatic childhood, but I definitely had some some stuff that trauma is so yeah, trauma is uh yes, I feel like it's kind of a hot word.

SPEAKER_00: 17:16

And so a lot of people don't recognize like what it can actually mean. Exactly. Um, so there's little T trauma, there's big T trauma, we've all heard of that, but there's also just uh wiring, if you will, of simple stuff. It's not even to say that my trauma was like, oh my God, my childhood is so horrible, as it was to say there are belief systems that I adopted as a child based on these experiences that I had that then informed the business that I created. And what I have come to find is that many, many, many people are building trauma-informed businesses. And I say that with love, but that's the part that needs and requires the healing, if you will, is not being ambitious. That's why my podcast is called Shamelessly Ambitious, right? It's not not taking the ambition away, it's not taking your drive or productivity away. It's looking at where does it come from and why are you doing it? Now, the way that I approach my business and approach my life has shifted only because I've come to realize what I truly value as opposed to what my wiring and stories told me to value.

SPEAKER_01: 18:21

Exactly. And that's why I think why a lot of people, you know, I hear from a lot of creatives all the time who say that, you know, I'm exhausted and nothing, you know, none of this is like lighting me up anymore, but their brain keeps pushing anyway, and they don't understand. Like, so as the as a therapist and somebody who's gone through it too, what's really happening there when is that that wiring? Like, so obviously there's this trauma-informed situation that cannot be glossed over.

SPEAKER_02: 18:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 18:50

What can somebody what's that first step for people?

SPEAKER_00: 18:55

Yeah. Well, for one, it's important to know that what's actually happening is your subconscious just trying to keep you safe.

SPEAKER_03: 19:01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 19:02

So if the narrative is, you know, like I'm I'm only loved if things go well, or even just the the old narrative that I think we all really know, which is like good big success only comes from big effort. You know, like I have to work for this, I have to earn it. That's often something that doesn't necessarily come from like some massive trauma. But I grew up with blue-collar parents. I mean, my dad, my brothers, all they've ever done is work harder than pretty much anybody that I know, 12, 14 hour days every day, physically taxing on their body. And so you bet your booty, all I ever learned growing up was like, hey, anything that you want, you got to work hard for, really, really hard for. So a narrative, that's just another example of something that might not identify to you as something as traumatic. But what's traumatic behind it, and I'll give you my example of this, is my parents often talking about financial discord around me all the time and the stressors of it, and them fighting all the time and threatening divorce against one another all the time, and the fear that ensued in me as a child of my life falling apart, the breakage of that life. And then when I was 17 years old and they actually lost their home to foreclosure, and I was a senior in high school. And so I experienced in real time everything being ripped out from underneath you. So you can imagine, like, yeah, some of that's trauma, some of that's like a lot of us can relate to that. Like my parents talked about money, my parents had these, but when you take it in as truth, right? Then your brain does its job, which is really beautiful, which is to go, hey, that we won't let that happen. We will ensure that you are safe from that experience. Therefore, you will do X, Y, and Z. And all of a sudden, your values, even if they don't match what you would identify as your values, become your values and therefore the way that you're operating. In fact, I often talk with my clients about how there's perceived value and there's there's um actual value that we have. And so I've had to have some tough conversations with some incredible women who will say, like, you know, when you ask what are your values, it's like, oh, presence and recognizing the beauty in people and, you know, whatever. And that's all they think. These are very valid. I love them. They're beautiful. But then I have to say, as a therapist who's worked with them intimately for X amount of time, what I witness as your values are perfectionism or never resting, or actually not being present, or social media as a value, right? And that's never a fun thing to identify with, but that's the shift that has to start taking place. So you can say, here's the values that I have, but then you have to be willing to take radical responsibility for, you know, the old saying of like your calendar reflects your priorities. That's truth. Like, does what you desire to value match with what your life actually looks like? And if it does not, this is where that awareness takes shape and your ability to kind of witness that. Now, on the opposite side of this, is you're also going to experience a lot of the emotional discord that comes with kind of reving up against something. That your brain has created in order to keep you safe, right? And so this is where I often teach a three-step process of number one, regulation, right? So obviously we've all heard this before. I like to dumb it down to as simple as asking yourself, like, how can I get out of my head and into my body, right? So you don't have to do some massive breathwork thing, or you can literally go outside and take a deep breath. You can take your shoes off and put your feet in the grass. You can drink water very, very slowly. You just have to get out of your head and into your body. That's one of the most important things that you can do. Secondary is meeting yourself with compassion. And a lot of people skip this step because what's true is that whatever part of you is having the response that it's having is actually an inner child version of you. And so imagine, like, I think of my kiddos. If my daughter came up to me and was like, oh my gosh, I'm not good enough to do this job anymore. This is the emotion that she's experienced. What do you think is gonna happen if I go, well, that's stupid, get over it.

unknown: 22:57

Yeah. Right.

SPEAKER_00: 22:58

Well, my daughter right now is in a very sassy phase. So I don't even want to know what her response is.

SPEAKER_02: 23:02

Right.

SPEAKER_00: 23:03

But all that to say, that's kind of what we do. We're like, oh, regulate, ground down, you're safe, but also shut up because that's stupid. As opposed to meeting it with like, my favorite phrase is, of course. Of course you're feeling that way. And really just validating the emotions that we're feeling, right? And then the final step is to ask what's true. But what's true? At this very moment, when you're feeling these very feelings, what is actually true? So kind of going back to our original conversation, if you're believing in this moment, the belief is the whole world is gonna blow up, you know. And then you go, What's true? Well, actually, the world won't blow up. Or more importantly, literally nothing will happen if I take the rest of this day because I can't stare at my screen anymore, or I feel like a burden to my team, or you know, whatever the case may be. And for me, what's true was my my whole livelihood will not decompose if I take the time that's required for me to really align with my values. But I had to really meet that friction, just like I had to meet the friction when I left social media permanently. It was like so much of me was convinced there's no way I'll never be successful again. This is how I made all my millions of dollars. Like this is it. Right. I had to meet, but but it doesn't align with my values. So I had to hit that head on and continue asking them, but what's really true? And what's true is people built businesses for years and years and years and years without social media and they thrived. That's what's true. So those are just a few examples of how I've had to kind of meet it with myself.

SPEAKER_01: 24:40

Yeah, those are all really important pieces, especially to the meeting with the compassion because so many people I mean, we just and yeah, a lot of it has to do with the trauma and the programming. Uh, but it's that internal, you know, saboteur that just likes to pop up. It it really is just your unconscious, just trying to keep you safe and alive. But we are so much harder on ourselves than anybody else in our lives. Like again, like you wouldn't tell that to your child, but that's really what that is. It's like seven-year-old you is what I always tell people. It's like you can't really negotiate with a seven-year-old if you ever tried. My daughter is seven.

SPEAKER_00: 25:25

And I said sassy time, right?

unknown: 25:27

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 25:28

Exactly. It's like, no, okay, no, all right. You know, you see you sort of have to like meet them where they are, and then then you can like move through it. But so many of us don't meet ourselves where we really are. And we just sort of like, ah, get over it, get over it. You got this, you got this, right? Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 25:46

Um, yeah, push harder, be stronger, let it go. You know, I was telling somebody today that yesterday I went to pick up my kids and I just felt kind of depleted. You know, have one of those days where I'm like, oh, I've got like nothing to give. And I was driving, and so I was like, okay, why do I feel this way? I just tapped into like, why am I feeling this emotion? And instantly all the swirling thoughts came up emotions, feelings, but also to-do lists and tasks and all the things, and I felt all of it. So I picked up my phone and I opened up my voice notes app and I just spoke it all out loud. I spoke it in that I'm gonna say this, and then it does not exist in my head anymore. And I just let it all out as much as I possibly could. That to me is also a form of self-compassion because I could have been like, all right, well, life is life. You know, this is what we gotta do, gotta pull it together. But that doesn't actually serve any. We all know what happens then. I pick up the kids, I'm temperamental, I'm impatient, I'm snapping at them. I'm trying to get more things done because the idea of all the things I had to get done is what's making me overwhelmed. So obviously, if I just do all those things and I'll feel better. Ha ha ha. So I try to do some of those things and I get interrupted, or dinner comes out later, all the things that happen, and I don't go to bed feeling better. But I met myself with the compassion of, of course, you're overwhelmed. You're a freaking superstar. You literally do more than most humans in the world do. And I love you for that. Now hand it over and have some fun with your kids. And we went and got Hakoko and we watched a movie, and I didn't think about a damn thing again. And they got the very best version that I was capable of giving them, even though, yes, a movie was the best I could do. I couldn't actually hang out. But that's I think that's what's missing oftentimes. And the high functioning burnout version of us is the one who just pushes through, who's like, yeah, but I have no choice. I've got to try and get at least seven more tasks done today. I still have to make, you know, we stay so disconnected from the reality of what our values were. So in that moment, that was me going, but what do I really care about? And it was being present with my kids. It was being a joy to be around, not a not a pressure-filled monster, you know, that everybody has to be afraid of, which trust me, I've been that version too, you know.

SPEAKER_03: 27:56

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 27:57

It's not easy, but yeah, it's it's in the easiest, simplest terms, which is not simple at all, it's realigning with your values.

SPEAKER_01: 28:04

Yeah, that that's the part that I don't want to just gloss over and I want to kind of touch on really quickly because that is like that key piece, yeah. Right. And so many, I think one of the main issues is that we don't either give ourselves the opportunity to, or we just don't uh know what what those values are anymore. Right. So, like they, you know, they also shift and change. Exactly. They can be someone else's values or stories that we were programmed with. Like a lot of people are living lives like, why am I even doing this? Like, I don't even want to do this. This was someone else's dream. And then all of a sudden you wake up and you've been living hypnotically for years. So that happens, but also you shift and change, right? Like, so my kids are all grown now, you know, like I I have to reevaluate now, like what that really like looks like for me, like for the the next phase, the next chapter of my life and however long I have here, like, okay, well, what do I really, what do I really want that to feel like and not just look like but feel like in my body, because I live in my body and you know, I tend to like stay up here, but I'm like, no, come on, you know, like we're we're in the body here. And so what it what do you want that to feel like? And so a lot of women, especially, I feel like, haven't given themselves the space to even explore that. And so that piece right there, unless you know what the values are, then it's gonna be really hard to create this this version of yourself that doesn't have this high functioning burnout. And so I want to kind of touch on that a little bit. How are some of the ways that you suggest? I mean, you lead like retreats, you do all of these cool things. First time I met you in the back of that van on the way to the retreat, we were talking about how you're like, yeah, I, you know, I jump, I take women to loom and we jump off cliffs, and I'm like, I'm out. I'm like, I love you. I'll go with you jumping off a cliff. You're like, no, no, no, yes, you will. And so what are some of the ways that you tie try and get or that you show and model? Because again, like you live it too. Yeah. Um, we got to take our own medicine, you know? Yeah. And I'm talking to myself here. So your girl's definitely in some high functioning grown-ups. So it's timely for me. What are some ways to get like more connected to those values as well? Like and and even like to shift into, okay, that isn't what I want anymore, and like letting that go, because that's also very scary.

SPEAKER_00: 30:40

Yeah, I mean, this is why I do host retreats and love retreats so much, because I think it's an opportunity to set everything down and and disengage from the stuff that keeps us misaligned, you know, the actions, the daily to-dos, the very robotic um sort of A through Z that we do every day. We all end up in some sort of monotonous rhythm in our lives. It's just, it's, it's natural, right?

SPEAKER_04: 31:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 31:04

Partially it's that. It is also to put women outside of their comfort zone because I think that we are so stuck in certain ways of doing things that we can't even fathom, the outside version of that. And so some of the transformations that I've seen take place from women who do jump off a cliff. That's one example, um, but also take part in incredible, you know, shamanic ceremonies or breath work sessions or body energy work, you know, things that we do in person and even just the collective conversation of like you are surrounded by people who can say, Oh my God, I feel that too. Because that's part of it. We island ourselves as high-functioning burnout recipients. That's what we do because that's the safest place. Because then there's no question. Because the truth is, many of us are just as ashamed of our patterns and our habits as we are addicted to them.

SPEAKER_01: 31:58

For sure.

SPEAKER_00: 31:58

That that end of story. Like that. So we hide it and therefore we start to isolate ourselves in order to hide it even from those that we love the most. And so there's something incredibly impactful about, you know, for me, I had to literally edge myself out of my business, which was just my bit my best hiding place. That's what it was. You know, it was this cave that I could crawl into that I felt safest in because of all the stories that we have talked about. But it was the least safe for me because parts of my soul were dying in that place. And so I think obviously a retreat is a dramatic potential for a way that you could face this. But I think it's also, you know, you have to push the status quo. You have to push the envelope, right? So when I talk with clients, yes, it's kind of that hard conversation of what do you value? But then getting beneath the surface of not what do you idealize? So many women will say, I value presents. And I can guarantee that 99% of them, you would not look at their life and say they value presents. And I say that with love.

SPEAKER_04: 33:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 33:03

But it's a very societally acceptable response. And so you have to be willing to kind of edge into, but like, what do you really value? You know, like what is it that lights your soul on fire? And you kind of have to be willing to address it again and again and again and again. And that, I mean, I could carve up, I said that five months that I took. The first month I really got lost in just kind of transferring my to-do list to another place, yeah. Um, only to not feel like anything was shifting, anything was changing. And then I had to learn how to be really comfortable being still. Once I realized it, I started to do nothing. And oh my God, it felt like somebody was just like waxing my vagina every day. That's what it felt like. That's how freaking uncomfortable I was, and not like read a book and drink hot coffee and like, oh, it's Pinterest perfect. Like, quite literally sit in fucking stillness and face the demons that are beneath the surface. Face the fact that for years I have said I value this thing, and I can't bring myself to sit in that, let's call it presence, for more than five minutes without wanting to claw my eyes out. So clearly that's not a value that I have. And then just kind of meeting it. Like, it's also okay if that's not your value, but let's stop lying to ourselves. Let's identify something different then. And so then I could get beneath the surface of like, oh, actually I value liveliness. I want my life to feel alive. Presence to me is not sitting and being still. Like, and it was just an adoption of like recognizing what it is that I was really after, what I really wanted, and also kind of digging beneath the surface of like, why have I made certain decisions that I've made in my life? Because the truth is there's always some resonance beneath it that we can uncover of like, oh, there she is. You know, because all we're trying to get to is that seven-year-old version of ourselves who did not care what anybody else thought, who was not programmed to believe anything else yet, who did not have a societal lens covering her entire view. And I I have a beautiful, beautiful gift in the fact that um I have children and they're young right now, and my daughter is seven, and I have had a front row seat to, well, let's say this front row seat in a beautiful way and also incredibly trauma-triggering way. I do say that. Like as your kids start to edge into the time to experience trauma, you do feel it through them because you're witnessing yourself in them. And also that was a great gift for me because I saw anger that I had suppressed. I witnessed sadness I'd never seen in myself, you know. And so then it's also just feeling it, feeling what feels when you when you realize, like, oh my God, I spent the past year being a perfectionist and it was a waste of my time. Well, great. What do you feel about that? You know, a lot of my client sessions are about raging out. Like, yeah, tell me how you really feel, like allow yourself to express what you feel. And that's again part of the retreats is like, yeah, if there is anybody who's gonna get you to to rage out, it's me.

SPEAKER_01: 36:16

Yeah, that that I 100% agree with that. So yeah, no, it is about expanding that emotional capacity, right? And you know, and feeling safe enough to do it. So in these different spaces and and containers or whatever it is to do that, I think that's a really big piece of it. But when you touched on, yeah, like with those of you who have kids and are listening, that is uh that is a big piece of it. Like we're so triggered, right? Like, but the triggers are are gold, gold. They're gold if you choose to look at them that well, but I mean they are an opportunity, I think, you know. And it was so interesting when my kids, because I have three as well, and they're all grown now, but I had them very close together. Like I had three kids under the age of two. And so I had one, and then two years later we had the twins. And so my older son, he has autism, but he also around the age of I think it was like seven or eight, he really got some some severe, like really bad anxiety. So the thing about it is so very interesting to me is that you know, I grew up completely undiagnosed with like major anxiety disorder. Uh, you know, that wasn't talked about really when I was a kid. That's not something they diagnosed you with. It's like, okay, well, why are why are you so crazy? You know what I mean? And so I just learned to mask it. I learned to get over it, like just be fine, you know, and then it started having physical manifestations later in my life in my stomach and all kinds of stuff, right? Because the body's gonna always body pillow. Um, but when I was a kid, I remember I would have and I had forgotten about this until it started happening to him. So the interesting part was that he was having these night terrors and these nightmares about, um, and he's verbal, so he was able to tell me what they were about, but he would have these terrible, terrible nightmares that the house was on fire and it was always about fire. And I was, it was like I was like transported, like when in the movie, like back into my seven-year-old body. And I was like, oh my God. I lived with that fear for years, like as a child. I don't know where it came from. Like we never had a fire in my house. Like, I didn't know anyone who died in a fire, like, you know what I mean? But something happened, got in there, got stuck. And I was having these memories of my own. Like, that's kind of like realizing that was sort of my first memory of where my anxiety came from because I didn't know what it was called. I just thought that I don't know what I thought. I just knew that it was not okay to talk about and not everybody was talking about it. So I was just gonna not talk about it. You know what I mean? So it's just really interesting how that happens with your kids because that's one of the first times I remember thinking as a parent, like, oh, this is like so much bigger for this. Like, this is so much bigger. You know, I get in these like spaces where I'm like, oh my God, we're so infinite, you know what I mean? And you know I can go all the way, woo. But like that was such a great perspective for me in that moment, not only because I could help him in a way that I couldn't receive that back then, but I really truly believe that that healed a piece of me in that moment, right? And like because time doesn't exist and everything is all happening at the same time, it was like my inner child also got that piece of healing in that moment, which is so amazing. And like you said, healing isn't a destination, you know. I mean, when you're dead, maybe, right? Like that's what's what's the end goal here, right? Like we none of us are getting out alive, yeah, you know. And so if if you look at it as a part of the journey and that, okay, it's not really about a destination at all, it's about who am I becoming at each stage of this journey. And what a gift to be triggered by our partners, by our kids, by you know, our businesses. Um, but then also to stop and sit with it. So, like that sitting with it piece is really, really, really hard.

SPEAKER_00: 40:35

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 40:35

It's really, really hard.

SPEAKER_00: 40:37

It is. And I will also just based on your story, speak to generational trauma, which a lot of people don't always consider. Um, so I'd be willing to bet that you have some ancestors who might have passed in a fire.

SPEAKER_01: 40:49

Oh, for sure. Um I've done some past life work since then.

SPEAKER_00: 40:52

Okay, good. Because I again, a lot of people will come to me like, well, I don't have any trauma. And I'm like, everybody has trauma.

SPEAKER_01: 40:58

Every, yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 40:58

Even if it's not yours, you know, even if it's somebody else's. There's a really great book called It Didn't Start With You. Yep. Really good book. Um to dig into that conversation of just like there are pieces that we carry, and I think that's why we see it in our kids, because it is generational. And the reason we're triggered is because it's an invitation to do our own healing in order to um prevent them from going through what we went through. So, you know, I see it as just such an honor, you know, to go, okay, there it is. All right. You know, we experience that a lot with my 11-year-old right now, whether it's just the way he responds or the way that, you know, I grew up just really, really caring what other people thought about me. And I'd be a liar if I said that that's completely dissipated. But I see the raw, unrefined version of that in my son. And it makes me ache, but it also makes me want to go spend time with that girl who is just so desperate to be loved. You know, because that's the seed of it. And we can we can find the seed of any of these things if we're willing to stop long enough to just get curious. You know, compassion and curiosity are the cornerstones of healing.

SPEAKER_01: 42:11

For sure. This episode is sponsored by Unavoidable, a workshop I created for entrepreneurs who can feel that the version of them who survived the last few years is not the version meant to build what comes next. Unavoidable is a clarity and identity-based workshop, not a hustle and goal setting training. It's designed for people who are tired of planning from exhaustion, overthinking their next move, or setting goals their nervous system can actually hold. Inside the workshop, I guide you through clarifying a five-year vision that feels grounded in your body, not just exciting in your head. We work at the identity level first because strategy doesn't stick if your system is still in fight or flight. I also show you how to use AI as a supportive tool for clarity and reflection, not as the star of the show. So it actually helps you access what you want instead of overwhelming you. And I also include journal prompts in the Google Doc that I provide in case you don't want to use AI. You'll also create a cinematic vision board movie that you can return to daily and build an identity-based goal framework that supports ease, focus, and follow through without burning yourself out or forcing motivation. So what you're gonna walk away with is a sense of calm clarity. You already know what you're building, why it matters, and who you're becoming as you build it. And that changes how you move through your days, your work, and your decisions. And listen, you don't need to know what you want to be doing in five years to do this exercise. Okay. What matters is that you're going to create and conjure up how you want to feel in five years. Because when you anchor that feeling into your body and you really get it into your system, you energize. Align to that version of yourself now. And that is the way you call it into your existence. So don't get caught up on having to know where you want to be or what you want to be doing in five years. You don't need to know that to do this workshop. You're going to walk away with some deep clarity, regardless. Because what matters is how you actually feel. So if you've been feeling scattered or stuck, or like you were sort of bracing your way through growth instead of expanding into it, this is the workshop for you. I don't know why. Well, I do know why, but I was going to say I don't know why it's so hard to stay there. Our programming keeps pulling us back to safety. Yeah, it's like always. It feels like shit. Exactly. And uh we're not we're not really into that. So it does take intention. It does take like, you know, a decision to prioritize that. Because you know, whatever you focus on is gonna grow, like whatever your wherever your attention goes, it is gonna flourish. But it's it's a very uncomfortable process most of the time. It's not unicorns and rainbows, you know, the whole time. But I think that if you can look at it piece by piece and follow the breadcrumbs and take it in chunks instead of like, because it feels very overwhelming for a lot of it. Sure, of course. So I always tell people like just try and just what is the next right step? We don't need to know this whole path right now. Like that's not that's not the deal. But we're following that little pie those little pieces of joys, pieces of joy that get you back to what those values really are, you know, and and how are you, how have you been expressing that? Right. Because like you can talk a good talk, but like you said before, that's not what I'm seeing, right? That's not the proof that I'm seeing in your life. With that in mind, right, like I mean, I think there is definitely a lot of there's definitely a lot of things that you can do to get back to these pieces and you don't have to jump off a cliff, uh, you know, to do a bit. Although I'd highly encourage Although I do think that it probably is pretty awesome. But like just for instance, when we were at the retreat that we were just at, that was the first time in a long time that I was able to just stop and not not work, but more than not work, just really be present without an agenda. Like I kind of went into that just by letting myself off the hook before I even walked in the door. I was like, it is gonna, it's gonna be whatever it's gonna be. I don't have any expectations for this. Like I literally just needed a break. Like I needed a vacation really, really bad. And so I just was like, okay, well, whatever comes up, that's what I'm gonna do. And two of those days, I ended up sitting on the beach by myself in the sand, like a like literally just tactile playing with sand in the water. And it was the most amazing thing ever, right? Like it was like so exactly what I needed. Um how do you, how do you then right, carry that through? Because that's the hard part is like you you go to these retreats or you, you know, do these things that are gonna be amazing for you. But then how do you integrate back into your regular life with this different perspective, knowing, okay, I know I'm in some burnout, I know this is not aligned, I know that I don't want to do this, but uh I gotta make money. You know what I mean? Like there's this thing that happens, it's like I have to pay the bills because that just happen has to happen. So, what are some pieces that we can take away before we wrap up for those people who are kind of feeling like that, right? And they are trying to make these decisions. I mean, obviously getting in containers and working with people one-on-one is huge, but like what can you do right now to recall those things, right? To get you back into that place of regulation so that you can continue following that, those breadcrumbs.

SPEAKER_00: 48:03

Yeah. Well, I will say, particularly with the retreats that I hold, I do a six-week therapeutic integration afterwards to ensure that I take, so as I'm observing you and working with you and helping you in real time, I then take all of that and help you for six weeks to integrate it into your life. Because I agree, like I think retreats can take you so far. I think they can be this like, I don't know, like time lapse almost of getting you to places that you would have taken months and months to get to in any other setting. But it can be lost, like the minute you get onto a plane, if you haven't like shifted the actual behaviors beneath the surface. So 110% I agree with you. Obviously, the retreat that we went to and the retreat I host are like very different. Not even in the same accord. And I will say it's less about strategy and more about auditing. So oftentimes we're always looking for what we can add to our plate. How can I, what can I do more of? What can I, you know? And it's like, honey, that's the problem to begin with.

SPEAKER_04: 49:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 49:04

Right? So of course it's not sustainable. And so I personally, every single month, I'm auditing myself. Every quarter I'm doing a bigger audit. So when I say audit, I'm actually looking and taking that radical responsibility, which is still the case for me. You wouldn't come into my life and be like, damn, she's perfect. Not even a little bit. You know what I mean? Like I'm still human. And so I'm still constantly growing and learning, but I'm always willing to stop and look and see like, where was I in alignment? Where was I not in alignment? Where am I seeing triggers come up? Because sometimes we don't see them in the moment, but we can see them reflectively, right? And so obviously I help my clients with this, but it's something that you can do with yourself as well is just be willing to audit rather than strategize. And so, what that also means is more often than not, what I see people doing in their healing journey is adding healing on to all the things that are they're already carrying. And then of course, that that healing thing that they added is getting what 0.2% of the energy that they have. So I always encourage if you're recognizing parts of yourself that aren't necessarily aligned, be more willing to take away than you are to add in, right? So alignment is found in the reduction, it's not found in the addition, if that makes sense.

SPEAKER_01: 50:22

Yes, it does. And I think that is a very, very, very huge timely reminder for a lot of us, right? Especially this time of year, it's like really a good time of year to do it too. You know, looking back and sort of like auditing and deciding, okay.

SPEAKER_00: 50:39

Yeah, and taking away. It's scary. I I don't say any of this with like, oh, it's so easy. It's not easy. But if you were to look and at my life over the past year and a half since coming back after my sabbatical, what you will notice as a pattern each month is more and more being taken away from my life. More and more, you know, whether it's social media or certain people or, you know, actions that I was doing, because I understand that what used to be my go-to, which is just, well, now in addition to running this business and homeschooling these kids and traveling the world, I'm gonna um track every piece of food that goes into my mouth. And I'm gonna drink 17 liters of water a day. And I'm also gonna get in 25,000 steps and also I'll masturbate every other day because that's supposedly really good for you. But I'll I'll be microdosing while I do it. You know, like it was just like, what more can I add to my plate? And now if there is something I see that I'm like, ooh, you know, I do I do microdose. So if I do want to explore microdosing, I actually look at what can be removed in order to take on that new experimental process for myself.

SPEAKER_01: 51:50

Yeah. I hadn't heard it put that way, uh, in in particular. And I think that that is a really important piece of it because you're right. Other than otherwise, you're just adding more stuff to it. Like, and it feeds into that addiction that we have. Us doers.

SPEAKER_00: 52:05

Yes. I replaced social media with mushrooms, so I I say that, but I actually am being very honest with my own. But I did, yes. But I did because I was like, okay, um, I want to, I desire valuing, you know, a reduction in how much time I'm putting towards certain things. I I don't, I realize I'm an open head in human design. I'm sure your audience is anywhere with human design, but yeah, as an open head, I could see that social media was costing me so much more than it was giving me. And also as an open head, I realized how much I needed to tap into the intuitive nudges that I had, which were hard for me to reach with my conscious thoughts always in charge. And so I wanted to explore microdosing and I knew that I could not pair microdosing with social media to get the results I was looking for.

SPEAKER_01: 52:56

Yeah, I definitely can see that. Yeah, for sure. But that's so great that you had the that awareness and you know, intuition to know that about yourself too, right? So I mean, that's a big piece of it and like honoring it and not fighting against it either, like not pushing it aside, like being like, because those little nudges, those they're whispers, right? They come up as intuition, but a lot of people just you know push them aside. And so I think that's like kind of the main one of the main pieces of this entire conversation is like, okay, listen, pay attention, and audit whispers.

SPEAKER_00: 53:30

I can't say that enough. Like, even leaving social media, it was terrifying. So, what did I do? I audited it. I looked at what revenue really comes from it, how much time does it take me to create from it? What is it actually costing me energetically? I audited it and then it was a no-brainer. I went from being terrified and like, what would I actually do? And how to like off everything deleted. I am done, haven't thought about it, don't pick up my phone to look at it. But I had to audit first. I had to be so real with the truth of it, including the truth of like, oh, turns out most of my revenue comes from my podcast, referrals, and um clients staying with me, retention. Right? That's really where most of my revenue comes from. So am I willing to gain back X amount of time, energy, emotional capacity for the 10% of revenue that it was giving me in any given year? Uh yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 54:24

Yeah. Yeah. And you wouldn't have had that data, you know what I mean, had you not done that step. So yeah, I love that. Okay. So much good stuff. We could go on and on. But we'll save that for another time. Uh we'll definitely dive back in on another conversation because there's a lot that we can get into. But thank you so much for sharing all of this and not just like, you know, the generalizations about what you see in your coaching around this high functioning brand. Also, yeah, also your own personal experience with it because it's so relatable right now. It's just so relatable and so timely. And I think that this is um an ongoing conversation. Where can people find you? And I mean, we're no, we're you're not on social. Not on social. Your your podcast is definitely where you hang out a lot as well, right?

SPEAKER_00: 55:15

Yeah, yes. My podcast, Flamessly Ambitious. Um, my website is Ashmcdonald Mentoring.com. I also hang out by email a lot. I love writing, so I do pretty extensive writing in there. I'm always like, do people love this or hate this? Because basically a journal entry. Um, and I do have a retreat coming up in Tulum, Mexico, which is so funny. It's in February. It's called Surrender. And it's exactly as I talked about in this conversation of you know, a really expansive, beautiful five-day experience where you get to really uncover those values and get clarity that you probably wouldn't be able to find on your own. And then I'll walk you through the process to ensure that it sticks.

SPEAKER_01: 55:54

That's the piece. That's awesome. That's awesome. So good. So good. Thank you so much for being here.

SPEAKER_00: 56:00

Thanks for having me.

SPEAKER_01: 56:01

Okay, so we went there. And I don't know about you, but you know, I I talk about a lot of this in my own coaching business, uh in my own life. It's it's definitely something that's top of mind for me, especially right now, because I I definitely am in a season of high functioning burnout for sure. Absolutely. A lot of it has been, you know, because I had to, quote unquote, right? Uh things like that that came up in the conversation, that we have to do more to make sure everything doesn't fall apart. And I'm in that place of sitting with that and looking at, you know, what are those values for me at this point in my life? Like what do I really, really, really truly want? And allowing myself that space to kind of go there with it is very important. If you are also in that place, I invite you to be compassionate with yourself in this process as well, like she was talking about, and do that audit, right? I love that line. You know, it's it's really about taking away more than adding more stuff because that is our first go-to is to just add more things to the doc. What can I do? What can I do? What can I do to fix this? Okay. Well, growth and uh, you know, all the things that we were talking about, most of the time, it's not super comfy. It's not gonna be uh easy, it's not necessarily gonna be super desirable all the time, but the payoff is is is so good. The payoff is so good. I really do believe that. And I like speaking personally for myself anyway, because I can't speak for any of you, but speaking for myself, you know, I'm just really unwilling to continue doing things the way that I've been doing them because I know it's not working for me. I know it's not working for my body. I know that if I continue doing what I'm doing, even for like another year, that it's not gonna be good. It's just not gonna be good. I just know it. I have an intuition that this is not the path. Right. So I have a decision to make and I I can take responsibility for that. And it doesn't have to look, you know, dramatic and and maybe it will. I don't know yet. I haven't gotten to that place yet, but I do know that I'm not gonna keep doing what I've been doing because I don't want to get further into burnout, that's for sure. There's definitely got to be some changes being made. And it starts with me, right? So I invite you to look at that if if this episode resonated with you at all, if it brought up stuff for you, if it triggered you, there's a reason for that. Just lean in. You know, you can choose to lean in and get curious and follow those breadcrumbs. And you can also decide to push it aside. You know what I mean? The choice really is yours, because that's definitely a common thing I hear about from from women, especially right before the holidays, is um, and that's when I'm recording this, is I don't have time for that right now. I'll deal with that later. Okay, I get it. But are you? Will you? Right? The choice is yours. We all have choice. We all have free will. Okay, but I know for me, I am unwilling to keep doing this. Um, I love what I do, I love my businesses, I love my clients. I mean, there's so many pieces of it that that I really truly love, but there's a lot of it, if I'm being super honest, that just doesn't feel aligned anymore. And it doesn't feel like it's lighting me up in the same way. So yeah, I'm gonna sit with that and see where it takes me. And I'm gonna do my own work and uh I invite you to do yours. So let me know if this episode resonated with you. I'd love to hear your thoughts as always. You guys definitely get in touch with Ashley. She's phenomenal. Get in her universe. She's just like a light of a person. Like when you're around her, like you can tell, like through Zoom if you're watching this on YouTube. But she in person, yeah, you really feel it. Like she's just her energy is uh is pretty amazing. So you gotta know her. She and I can really have gone hours on these topics. Like we we we've gone down rabbit holes. So thank you again for being here, you guys, and have a great rest of your week. I'll talk to you soon. Love you. Bye.