SPEAKER_02: 0:00

Hello and welcome back to Tried and True with The Dash of Woo. I am your host, Renee Bowen. And today we have a fantastic guest for you. We'll get to her in just a second. Real quick for the senior photographers in my audience, tomorrow is your last day to sign up for the spring senior sprint. So if you need help with marketing, if you do not have clients, if you know nothing about SEO or AEO, which is AI search, which is more important right now than human search, you have no idea if you've got that going on on your website and how to even have that cross over to social. And if you are struggling even with your in-person marketing, we're going to cover all of that and more in this six-week intensive. You also get me on Voxer throughout the entire six weeks as the whole group. And you also get the creative team method, which is worth almost$1,000 in and of itself. So you get a lot of really great bonuses included in this marketing sprint. It is six weeks, it is an intensive, and you do get the replays of the calls and all the transcripts. And yes, we are going to be talking about AI in this class as well. I'm doing it because I know a lot of you guys do not have enough clients going into spring. And this is the perfect time to get that going because I want you booked for summer through fall with the right clients. So if you're struggling, or if you don't know where to even start with your marketing, or maybe you've been in business for a long time and the market's just really changed and you're just overwhelmed by like, why, why have my inquiries dropped? Why am I not getting the same kind of senior business that I used to get? You're not the only one. I'm seeing that a lot. Okay. And a lot of it has to do with AI and AI search and the way that we are being found. So we're going to talk about that as well in this class. And you're also going to leave with an actual marketing plan based on your business and your clients when you leave. The link for all the info and to sign up is below. You only have until tomorrow. If you have questions about it and you want to talk to me, the link for my voxer is below. Just start a chat with me and I will be happy to go a little back and forth with you today to see if the class is right for you. Here comes today's show and my amazing guest. Welcome to Tried and True with the Dash of Woo, where we blend rock solid tips with a little bit of magic. I'm Renee Bowen, your host, life and business coach, and professional photographer. At your service, we are all about getting creative, diving in your business, and playing with manifestation over here. So are you ready to get inspired and have some fun? Let's dive in. So my guest today is Jen Liddy. When the magic that you create with your clients is hard to convey through your marketing, that's when you call Jen. Okay, she translates your expertise, that thing that you do just like it's breathing, into a make your audience lean in kind of messaging that you're gonna want to use everywhere and every day. And since she's a self-proclaimed brand voice and messaging nerd, she's also gonna make sure that you also sound like yourself when you do it. Because positioning yourself as an expert is not about being noisier or doing more to get attention. It's really about expressing why you're better and different and the one to hire to get your people the results that they really want. All in a super duper clear way. Okay. So she is absolutely she's the coolest. She's just really the coolest. You guys are gonna love her because we're actually digging into a little bit of you know what she specializes in, but really about how letting go of some of your best practices could change your business. Um, if you're burned out by the algorithm, trying to keep up with everything, it's really about like the descaling and and and kind of peeling away so that we can get to the good stuff, and why sustainable businesses and honest messaging only happens after you stop performing and you stop optimizing and you start listening to your body, your intuition, and your truth. This episode explores descaling without disappearing, letting go of best practices, and why credibility, trust, and resonance online are directly tied to how honest you've been with yourself first. Let's get into it. All right, Jen. So you mentioned to me that over the last, I guess, 14 months or so, you stripped her business way back. And that was like super fascinating to me. Take us to the moment you realized that that old way wasn't really working.

SPEAKER_00: 4:27

Yeah, it probably started back in 2022. So if I'm really being honest, it really started earlier when I realized, oh, I've built these programs and these offers that actually suck the life out of me and don't make any money. And it it actually goes back to you were having a conversation with Nata on your on your podcast about um, you know, hiring out. But and one of the things that you you talk about a lot on the podcast that I can tell is like, look at the money, look at the numbers. Like you can't keep just pretending. And it's so in 2022, I looked at the numbers. This is so embarrassing to say, but like I just was kind of running the membership on, I would say maybe vibes and energy and like swirls and magic. And I was like, no, it's gonna work, it's gonna work. I'm gonna scale it. I'm gonna scale it, I'm gonna scale it. And then it just never scaled. And this is a really interesting thing that I think you'll like because it's the dash of woo. Um, I first of all did not look at my numbers to be like, is this even profitable? Um, do I even like this? Is this energetically like filling me up? And then, so I used to be a high school English teacher and a college professor. And what I noticed is my kind of classroom in the membership was always static at between 35 and 37. Two people would come in, two people would leave. One person would leave, another person would commit it. Never could grow beyond 35 to 37 people in this membership. And it hit me one day in therapy, and I'm like, holy shit! As a teacher, I could hold energetically 35 kids in my classroom. And that was like what I could teach. And I would see, like, you know, a classroom, like five times a day, I would have 25 to 35 kids in front of me. But I always thought I could scale this membership to 200 people, and that's how I was gonna make my money. But honestly, like I just didn't have like I can't hold the energy for that many people. And that was the beginning of the end for me. And then it was literally just um a stopping and a pausing and an assessing, and then it was the stripping away of like, okay, this isn't working financially, it's not working energetically, it's not even like bringing me joy anymore. And it was like, um, I mean, my whole thing is content and marketing and messaging. Like, I'm a total word nerd. I was an English teacher, but I wasn't even like, I just I felt dead inside, is how I felt. And so uh it was that pause, and then so from there that was the first, and then it was that like kind of peeling away of like, well, what else needs to go? And then what else needs to go? And I'll tell you, every single time I took something away, I almost always filled it back in with something else, like, oh well, then that means I have to do one-to-one. But if I do one-to-one, then I have to give everybody everything and make sure that the program is complete and follow them around for months trying to get them to implement and like, oh, here I am again. It's like everywhere I went, there I was kind of situation. So that was that's kind of the like high-level version of what happened. And then 2025 was just like a reckoning because the robots have come for us. And when you're in a realm of messaging and marketing and anything to do with writing, people are like, oh, well, I have this robot who can do that for me. And I really had to get clear with like, okay, well, how can I change things? What do I like doing? Who do I like working with? How do I like working? And it was a lot of um sitting in a lot of discomfort and learning how to basically like undo, because I'm a doer. I'm a Gen Xer, I was born in 1970, and I my my mother always said, if you can lean, you can clean your value in the world is what you're bringing to this family, what you can do. So I just like brought all that invisible garbage with me, right? Yeah. So 2025 was sitting still and then getting rid of even more invisible garbage.

SPEAKER_02: 8:27

So much that I can relate to. I was gonna say, so did I give you the did I just make it clear? Yeah, no, no, okay. Well, it gives us a really great diving off point, too. You know, because I also 1970 baby. Uh so I get it. I get I get that very much. And I'm a human design generator. And if I'm not doing something, what am I? Oh my god, what am I doing?

SPEAKER_00: 8:51

And you're a two-for also, which I I'm a projector two four, which I didn't understand. Like, oh, I didn't understand, like, oh, I need time alone.

SPEAKER_02: 8:59

Yeah. I didn't get that. That two line, when I found that out about my human design, like that was one of the most impactful things because yeah, my whole life I had sort of like, you know, my Myers Briggs, I'm an INTJ. And you know, I knew that I was like an introvert, you know, sort of thing, right? But like it still didn't like make as much sense to me, I feel like, as opposed to like once I like learned about it in the context of human design, yeah, it it really gave you, it gives you that reason, right? It's like, oh, that's why. It actually is how I'm actually designed, and I need this for so many things to work well for me. And I mean, I'm married to somebody who is like the opposite. So that was always like a it was really hard for us in the early days of our marriage because he's such an extrovert and he just like he's all about like people and being around me and wanting to be around me all the time. Like, I'm going to die. Like you are suffocating this. Chucking the life out of me. And it's not, I was like, I it's not that I don't love you, but like I need a minute. Like I need that time. And so once we figured that out in therapy, like this is before I found out about human design, we figured that out in therapy early on, and and that was fine. But then when I learned about human design, I went back to him and I was like, okay, so here's the deal. And he was like, Oh, that's so cool.

SPEAKER_00: 10:21

That's totally you. That makes so much sense. And it's not personal, it's not like I'm doing this to you. And the other thing, when I figured out I was a two-pour projector, I was like, Oh, I've been move living my life like a manifesting generator. Sounds like you have. Yes. I had no idea there was another way to be. So all tied up in this is uncovering like the stillness and the therapy and the healing and all this stuff, but it's also uncovering, oh, what does my human design say? What does my Enneagram say? Like, I'm using all of these assessments to help me understand myself and not judge myself for why isn't this working? It seems to have worked for everybody else to have a membership and a mastermind and a course, and then it's maybe some one-to-one sprinkled on top of that, but like that wasn't working for me. Why not? So I felt like such a loser for so long.

SPEAKER_02: 11:13

Yeah, I hear that a lot from a lot of projectors I work with because you're you are sort of like brought up, especially in our generation. Yeah, you're brought up in a generation of generators and many gens. And like if you're not doing stuff all the time, you're a piece of shit, right? Like, that's what we were programmed with. I mean, honestly, it's so funny too, because like once we my husband is a many gen and I'm a generator, and the twins are projectors, and my oldest is a many gen. But the twins, particularly when they were teenagers, he would always this is before we learned about human design. He was like, Why do they sleep so much? Like, what is it? Why are they so tired all the time? Why are they doing things? And I was and I was more like, well, just let them be their teenagers, whatever, because you know, like that's just like the mom side of me, I think. But it always hit me that way too. I'm like, in his mind, it was like laziness because we're programmed like this, and but also because we're we don't live like that. We we're doers, we're always doing something, and we're gonna actors, and you know, and so once I learned about that, I was like, oh my gosh. So that's enlightening as a parent as well.

SPEAKER_00: 12:22

Yeah, and then nobody's judging anybody else or labeling them. Yes, and it's like like so. My husband is a generator and he just goes and he's like the energizer bunny, he just goes and goes and has endless access to his energy. And I used to feel bad, like, oh, I would need a nap, or hey, I don't really, I'm gonna take a mental health day from teaching today. And he he would look at me like, Are you fucking crazy? Like, what's the matter with you? You have to go to work. And I'm like, not today, not today. And again, for the two, it was almost like he didn't he didn't judge me as much as I judged myself comparing myself to him. And then you come into the online world after I leave academia, and it's just more of the same. It's like, oh, all of these people are making all of this stuff work. What's the matter with me? Yeah. And I must have said that I got into the online world in 2016, and I really only figured it out for real. It's been a journey, but for real, 2025 was like the reckoning for me. Like, know more of that. And then, okay, then what is it going to be? And how are you going to stop doing? Which is something I didn't understand. But my therapist has been trying to get me to understand, like for years. Like, you don't need to do, you just need to be. I'm like, that sounds so stupid and boring. I don't even know what that means. It's so abstract, but it's really been sitting this year. What do I even like to do? How can I make money in a way that I like and I can sustain? And so that's what I have spent the last year really diving into.

SPEAKER_02: 13:52

That's so awesome, first of all, that that you're doing that, right? That you're doing that work because I feel like this is something that can resonate with so many, not just women in our generation, but women in general in business. Um, that constant, I always talk about that, that, that doing, because yeah, I'm a doer, I'm a generator, but I also use it to numb out. I totally know that. Totally know that. Completely replace drinking with work. Oh, that's yes. Um, you know, it's just a it's just like if I'm not working, what else is there?

SPEAKER_00: 14:25

Right. Yes. I I went through that, yes.

SPEAKER_02: 14:27

Yeah, and like filling it, like, okay, well, if I'm working all the time, what am I not, what am I not wanting to address? Yes. That's a big one. And so a lot of women do that. We like, we sort of wear that like dizziness like a badge of honor. Yeah. Because, okay, we're programmed like that, but also society kind of like wants us to, you know, do all the things. And then we wear it like that badge. And then at the heart of it, there's like this deeper sense of resentment that just eats away at our soul because it's that martyrdom, codependent bullshit that's all wrapped up in all of this stuff that our moms did because they didn't do it on purpose. They were also programmed. Right, right. Exactly. And we are like now waking up, especially those of us in our generation, we're like, oh, this shit ends with us.

SPEAKER_00: 15:16

That's exactly what I was just gonna say. And my role as a mom has number one been break the chain, break every single chain that I can possibly break. And that in itself is a lot of hard work because you not only need to identify it for yourself, how is it showing up in your business? How is it showing up in your marriage or your partnership? How is it showing up with your family? But also then how is it showing up with yourself? And I am personally like bumping up against this right now because my son is home for Christmas. It's really his first time home since he left in August. And it's like he's sleeping 12 hours. He's exhausted. Yeah. He he wants to see his girlfriend, he wants to see his friends. He also wants to do nothing. And also he has like work for his internship to do. And I'm like, Are you gonna be home for dinner? And I'm just like trying not to do to him what my mother did to me was make me, which was make me feel guilty or but so all of this work that we're doing is so good for everybody, including ourselves, but it is this undoing. It's hard, it's hard, it's so hard, and it's hard enough in your life. And then you like have a business where you're trying to stop the doing, also, and then you're like, there's nobody any there's like when people talk about this being versus doing it, it always felt kind of bullshitty to me, you know. Like, okay, like how is that gonna work? How am I actually gonna make money? Um, and that has been a very it has been a I'm gonna like it's been a very slow year. I have not been the one putting money in the bank this year. I've not been the one putting food on the table. Like I am very privileged that my partner is able to do that. But uh, so I want to be clear when we're talking about this, like this being versus doing, this undoing, this like figuring out, like it has been a very slow year of self-discovery and like being really honest with myself, but it has not been a like I'm making a million dollars this year kind of year.

SPEAKER_02: 17:03

And I mean that would make sense, right? Because like logistically, uh yes, you know, yeah, I we always talk about that. And I and I am I'm really glad you brought that up because that's a very real, real issue for so many of us. I mean, like I myself have been in that situation, right? Like I my partner, I I can't rely on his income. And I haven't been able to for like the last five years. When it's good, it's good. When it's not, it's um really, really not good. So I that train can't stop going, right? Like so if the train can't stop, right? But I also love it. Like to be fair, like I I do love what I do. However, you get to that point of burnout, no matter, no matter what I think, no matter how much you love what you do, um, you still can take on too much, which a hundred percent I am guilty of as well. Especially since you have so many ideas going on.

SPEAKER_01: 17:56

Yes.

SPEAKER_02: 17:56

Yes, yes. And so it's like, well, I just because I can doesn't mean I should. I know that kind of stuff. What I I see this this show up just a lot with with um the women I work with and this sort of like push-pull of okay, but I do need to actually make this work. I do actually need to br to bring money in. So that is a big piece of it. And I do think that there is a way to do this kind of work and you know, create capacity and safety in the nervous system and all of that.

SPEAKER_00: 18:31

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 18:32

While also and here's working and bringing money in, you know.

SPEAKER_00: 18:36

And I want to piggyback on that because here's what I wish I knew at the beginning of I first of all, I wish I had trusted myself back in 23, 24 when I saw things changing and I stuck my head in the sand and I'm like, no, this AI stuff won't be so bad. People will still want a human. In 2025, they really mostly did not.

SPEAKER_01: 18:52

Right.

SPEAKER_00: 18:53

They really wanted now. We're coming back around to people going, well, I can't really sound like myself. Well, it's like, you know, this big taffy pull or this big love bomb that happens with it. Okay, I see it coming back around. But what I wish I had done was like this year, I wish I had spent less time in the spin of like, shit, what the hell am I gonna do now? Ah, and then like it was like I was going a million miles an hour. So the the only thing I could think to do was kind of pull back to zero miles per hour. What I really could have done better was like take what was already working and kind of peel out the things that I didn't enjoy anymore or that depleted me. Like, for example, the way that I work with people is one-on-one. It's all about messaging, brand voice, brand positioning, right? It's very targeted, it's very like like it's a one and done kind of thing. It's a project. But what I was doing was offering to work with people for like 30 or 45 days for implementation and feedback, which I know they need, but I also realized that's like uh depleting for me. Yeah. That would be better done with like a colleague of mine or somebody I could hand it off to, or maybe their assistant or their OBM or whatever. But I kept insisting in my mindset that this is what I needed. I needed to be the person to pull the thread all the way through. I needed to be the person who fixed all of their messaging problems and helped them put it into play. And if I had just shut the hell up and thought, like, okay, you really like this part, but you don't like this part, how could you pull that out? And how could someone else do that? Like delegating, like you were talking about with Nada on her conversation, right? Yeah. Like there's so many ways that I could have approached it instead of just coming to a screeching halt, which I really believed was my only way out. Yeah. So that was something I could have done better. And it would have still gotten me to this undoing place. But again, I just didn't trust myself. I thought, like, maybe I have to burn it all down. Maybe people don't ever want to work with humans again. Maybe I don't even belong in the online space at all anymore. Like, really questioning myself instead of like stepping into the self-trust of being like, hey, you're really good at this. You're you're good at this, but you don't like that part. So, like, how could it be different? And I'm really hoping that somebody listening is is like, hey, maybe I don't have to put the brakes on, but maybe I could slow down and pull out the pieces that I think people need, but I don't like delivering.

SPEAKER_02: 21:21

Yeah, it's those whispers. That's what I call them. It's like before the scream starts, right? Um, like we want to like, oh, there's whispers. Like if you look back, you can see them like, oh yeah, they're definitely showing up. It was showing up, but we are also so programmed to suppress those, right? That's our that's because you gotta keep going, right? You gotta keep bringing value. Yeah. And all of the best practices and all the bullshit that we've been taught. And so it's like, oh no, no, no, it's fine, it's fine, it's fine, I'm fine, I'm fine, I'm fine. And you're so not fine, you know what I mean? But like, we're not, and so that is a very, very important. So anybody listening, like, I know I've said it a lot. In in a few different ways, but this is another reminder that if you're if those are there's little breadcrumbs, there's little signs that show up, you know, before the shit really falls apart, there's signs that the foundation is cracking. And so it's really important, I think, more than anything, to be willing to just be radically honest about those when they happen, which is very hard, but it also is a gift to give yourself, like your future self, right? Like, okay, this doesn't light me up. Why am I doing it? Right? Like, even simple things like that. Like, okay, do I need to be doing every single piece of the process?

SPEAKER_00: 22:43

Probably not. This is why I think working perps people working with somebody like you is so important because you really can't sit in the silo and have it all ping-ponging around you and the echo, and you're telling yourself one thing and you're like, yeah, but yeah, there's always the yeah, but.

SPEAKER_01: 23:01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 23:02

And this year I wasn't working with anybody. I didn't have the only the person I was working with was my therapist, which is how I even got any of this clarity. Yeah. But if you're working with somebody who can help you like see the whispers and start to notice them and start to pull them apart and be like, okay, well, it's not like you have to burn it all down or drown your business, but like, what if I just like pulled these pieces out? But it took me, like, I'm not kidding. I am just coming out of this and it's December. And I suddenly have a lot of clarity only because I let myself get extremely quiet.

SPEAKER_01: 23:37

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 23:37

And um, you know, I did do the work with my therapist, but unless I had done that self-analysis, I would still be treading water in the deep end of the pool without a floaty.

SPEAKER_02: 23:48

Yeah. Well, and that's so important for people to hear because again, yes, the work it's important to do, but more often than not, it is the kind of work that you do need someone trained to help you do that. You know what I mean? Like in some kind of way and in some kind of capacity, because it is very, very hard to do it on your for anybody, but especially for projectors. Because you guys are so fantastic about seeing what everybody else needs, right? That's why you're so good at this messaging. Like, she's like a wizard, you guys. Like she pulls, like, you're like, oh, that's what you do. And then, like, it's it's so incredibly like efficient. That's your zone of genius, like, right? But that's why, because you're so good about seeing what everybody else needs. Oh, there's this thing coming. You need to watch out for that. Or the insight that you have for other people is fantastic, but it's very rarely like shown back on your side. That's so true.

SPEAKER_00: 24:48

I never thought about that.

SPEAKER_02: 24:50

Yeah. Somebody I heard, I can't remember who told me this, but it made a lot of sense. They were talking about the the different energy types of human design as like the animals on the plane in Africa. And like all the generators and many gens, we're like, we're all running. We're the animals on the ground running. Are you guys like the antelopes and the lions? Yes. And and the projectors are the birds, and you guys are like up above going, hey, watch out. There's this really, really awful thing coming. Or you know what I mean? Like, you guys have, but we need you need to be invited, right? Yes. Yes. So I've been talking to my my my kids about that. My daughter, especially, she's a little, you know, more receptive to the this kind of stuff. And I find a lot of projectors also have a hard time waiting for the invitation because she's like, I but I know the answer.

SPEAKER_00: 25:38

But I know, but I know. Yes. And that has been like my biggest lesson is when I ask a question in the right way and then get invited in to share what I see, it's a completely different thing. Yeah. Especially with my 18-year-old. Um, than saying, Oh, I noticed blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And then they shut down. And that took me a lifetime to learn. So I'm not surprised your daughter is still at that stage of like bumping into her 25. Yeah. I was thinking into herself.

SPEAKER_02: 26:08

Yeah, totally.

SPEAKER_00: 26:09

She's like, I just know.

SPEAKER_02: 26:09

Why isn't why are people listening to me? Exactly. It's so frustrating. It's just that, you know, that that that inner knowing. But I think it's it's very interesting too. Like a lot of projectors, you know, they will burn themselves out trying to fit in with the generators around them as well, like we talked about before. Yeah. Um, but I don't know. I feel like all of these different aspects that you're talking about, I feel like a lot of us can identify with different pieces of it. But I want to talk a little bit about, you know, I know that you've this year has been the the undoing and the and the sitting with it. And the you know, and that's a big piece of that too, is like, okay, well, that takes a lot of courage too, to actually just sit with it and not beat yourself up because that inner voice, right? Can be really mean, like you said.

SPEAKER_00: 26:58

Owning it was very empowering at some point during the year. It was probably April, May, June. I had gotten slammed with a bunch of new clients, and then June is like, whoa, this, okay, this isn't working anymore. And that's when I really started, but it was very empowering once I started talking and saying, I'm done taking clients for this year because I need to figure some new things out and I don't know what that's gonna look like. Um, so once I just put words to it, I found, and I don't think I'd ever really done this before or trusted that my colleagues and friends would respect it, but I just started talking about it and owning it. Like, this is what I'm doing and this is why I'm doing it. And people were a lot of people were like, wow, good for you, Jen. It wasn't like, oh, you're a flake or a loser. Like all of my fears, like they just were like, Bravo. Like, I wish I could have done that, or maybe I'll do that in the future. It was very empowering.

SPEAKER_02: 27:52

Okay, I love that piece of it because I feel like that is a very big part of why we don't talk a lot about like we talk about burnout, but when we really want to be honest about it, you kind of have to like you can go to some raw places with it, right? Like, like you said, there's a fear of if I talk about this, I'll lose credibility or people won't respect me. Like you're they'll forget about me. Yeah, exactly. But I think the opposite is is true too, though. And and I love that you're seeing that in real time because that just shows you we as humans really, really need and deeply desire connection and realness, and that word authenticity that gets thrown all around a lot. But it there's a reason why, because people connect with stories and realness and you know, things that you actually are going through because we're not perfect, and we all are struggling with shit internally. So when someone is brave enough to just come out and be like, yeah, no, I'm in it, it really is so freeing because it also gives you permission to feel your stuff, right? Like you might be suppressing it that whole time, and you're like, Oh, okay, well, now Jen's given me permission, right?

SPEAKER_00: 29:06

Or maybe in the future, like you have this a year from now, and you're like, Oh, I remember that conversation about that. And right, there's a left turn I need to make. Exactly.

SPEAKER_02: 29:15

Which I think is really powerful. So I really hope that you know, people who are listening, if you're going through anything like this within it on this journey, like, because I'm a big believer in it's not about a destination necessarily, it's about who you're becoming along the way. The identity piece, right? Yes, yes. So, like, who who is this uncovering for you, right? As you go through it. Has this that's what I want to ask you about. How has this identity piece come into play for you? And what are some things that maybe is have been surprising to you about that process?

SPEAKER_00: 29:48

Yeah, that's such a good question. Well, and the this is this was all happening at the same time that my son was a senior. I only have one kid. And I was it was really funny because I was never that mom who was like, I am born to have children. I actually chose to have one child because I knew I could be a good mom to one kid or a drunk mom to two. And so, like it was a really um intentional thing, but I'm only going through this journey once, right? So he was a senior and I knew and he's lovely and I enjoy him so much. And it was like such a different experience from when I was a teenager, like, couldn't wait to get away from my parents. And and so I knew I was going to miss him and I knew I was gonna be in grief about it. I also knew I've seen my friends have this thing where they become empty nesters and then they look at their partners and they're like, Do I even like you anymore? Do we have anything in common? Like, what the fuck are we gonna talk about if we're not talking about our kids? Right. So I was very intentional that I wanted to go through the year and just be present with him and like have fun with him and honor him and let him like start to find his independence. But I also wanted to figure out who was I when I'm not being a mom. I didn't really understand how much of being a mom was my identity. I had like I was very surprised about that because I had I have always worked and made my business center, or when I was a teacher, this that was the center of my life. And so there were three things like, how can I be the kind of mom where I'm not like lawn mowering over him? Um, how can I be a partner to my husband and like really enjoy him and like like a relationship that that's about to change fundamentally, but also like, how can I stop using work as the place to dump all of my anxieties and like time? And I don't have any hobbies, so I'm always working. What am I going to do if I am not like either focused on being a mom or being a business owner? It was like I needed an identity, a revamp, up level, whatever you want to call it. So I went into last year, again, very intentionally, because I didn't want to get to the other side of it and have it hit me. I wanted to be ready when when Jack left. And so again, that was that was my therapy for the for the year. It was like, I want to be ready so I don't have to be mowed down by and it was hard to fall apart. Like I really, yeah, I was really worried I was gonna fall apart. And what I didn't want, this is the crux of it. I didn't want to have my son leave, have my marriage be like, I don't know what the hell this is anymore, and then channel all of that junk into becoming busy in my business again. Because busy just I already did that, and that wasn't very fulfilling. So, what does life look like when I'm not busy, but I'm also still feeling like successful and fulfilled in my business and with my relationships? So that was um, I don't know if I answered your question, but like it was a huge identity shift from mom, wife, business owner to like it sounds so stupid. It sounds so tripe, but like, who actually am I?

SPEAKER_02: 32:50

No, it's not, it doesn't sound trite to me. I totally get that. Like, I feel like I've gone through multiple iterations of that over the years. It's just really interesting, like with each stage of my kids' development, too. And because I I've been a photographer for a long time and I specialize in in high school seniors, so I work a lot with that age group and their parents.

SPEAKER_00: 33:16

And their parents, and you see it.

SPEAKER_02: 33:19

That has been extremely, I think that actually helped me so much, just like in preparation for my own, like you said, kids.

SPEAKER_00: 33:26

Yes, because you can see it from the outside. You can see, like I was watching either friends or just people out in the world like freak out and not know what to do with their life anymore after their kid left. And I'm a person who was like, Yeah, I'm a mom, whatever. But like I did not realize how much it was consuming of my identity.

SPEAKER_02: 33:44

I I can completely identify with that. I mean, it's almost exactly my story. Like, I saw all of this coming. So I I I I made sure that I wasn't gonna be that mom, right? That's a very projector of you. I know. I saw these moms who were like literally falling apart. Their kids were everything to them. And I was like, oh my God, like, don't you? You know what I mean? In my mind, I'm thinking, We had a whole life before that. You have to have a life, exactly. Yeah, yeah. And so I was like, that's not gonna be me. You know, that's just not gonna be me. Oh no. And my husband and I, we love hanging out together. We always spend time, that's not gonna be us, like all of these things, right? Yeah, and it was my my daughter, even though she's the younger one. So my older son is 27, but he has autism, so he stayed at home with us and went to community college. So I didn't have that experience of being that right, right. But then two years later, my daughter, one of the twins, was the first one to go off to college. Later, her other brother would go off to college too, but she was the first one and she's like my girl, right? Like, we're tight. And I was just so proud of her. She's she's like super independent, like she does all her own shit. Like, I don't even have to like, there's nothing I have to worry about as far as like her getting things done, right? So I'm like, I'm thinking everything is good, everything's fine, and she's not even going that far. It's just like you know, five, five and a half hours north by car, like no big deal. And on the drive back from dropping her off at college, my her twin brother was in the car with me, and my husband was in the other car because we all had to like caravan up to go drop all her stuff up. She had so much stuff.

SPEAKER_00: 35:23

Girl dorm.

SPEAKER_02: 35:24

Yes. And so we're almost home. And I'm just like the whole time, I'm just like excited for her, you know, she's super excited, she's super independent, and like no stress, right? I mean, like stress getting it done, but like that was about it. And then like we're almost home, and I burst into tears. And I am not a crier, just like in front of my family, just in general. I am just not a big crier. Like, I'll cry at movies and I'll get sentimental sometimes, but my son, he was like, Are you okay? Like he was like so concerned, and I just was bawling. I was like, it just hit me that this was it. And that was really rough. Like, I mean, honestly, that just kind of started that process of of shift for me. Um, and I mean, it was good that he was in the car with me, I think, because you know, he and I are close as well. And I mean, I always think it's good for our kids to see us as humans, just in general, you know. But he was he was really there for me in that moment. He's like, Don't worry, you know what I mean? Like it was just very, it was really cool, but it was really hard to yes, it is hard. And ever since then, it's just been like this ongoing. And I went through the same thing when I dropped him off in Boston and and then that was a lot harder. That was a lot harder. Because it's further away, yes, and and that was like two years later. Yes, and it was also harder because he's my artist, he's the sensitive one, he's the one who really, you know, he's very talented and dynamic and uh so caring, but super empathic. And that was far. That was really, really far. And he also deals with a lot of anxiety and depression. And so leaving him was way harder. Um, I feel like it's just like a constant, like I said before, it's like evolution, one thing after another, especially when you have children that you don't mean to wrap your identity into, but we do. And it's it's like very hard to see that that bigger picture, right?

SPEAKER_00: 37:29

And it's also something to pull the thread. We do the same thing with our businesses. We do the same damn thing where we become the founder and then we become the the personal brand, and then everything is blurry and it's all encompassing. And you're like, how can I tease out the part of me that is private and keep that to myself too? So there's like all of this identity stuff that we do that we get ourselves like caught up in, and then it's like all of these examples that we're giving. Then there's a moment, the whisper that you were talking about, where you're just like, wait a second, this isn't working anymore. What do I have to pull out, or how do I have to recalibrate, or how do I have to pause? And those I've never, I guess I'm so glad we're having this conversation because I really hope that it encourages someone to just press pause, maybe not burn the whole thing down or put like step on the brake completely. But just like like when you hear those whispers, whether it's like, oh my God, my son is going away or my daughter's going away or my child is going away, or I don't want to do it this way anymore in my business or any relationship that you have. I mean, we have a relationship with our business. In the let me say this in the past, the whispers became a scream and then they became the piano that fell on my head, and then I was deep in burnout. That was my pattern over and over. I was trying in 2025 to not have that pattern uh reignite. So that's why I paused instead of pushing through and waiting for the piano to fall on my head. And I'm really, when I look back, I think, like, God, I'm so proud of myself because you know what? I didn't make the money that I've made in other years, but I also didn't burn my business down and I'm still here to talk about it. And I think the way that the industry is changing or online business is changing, or the way that um customers are so sophisticated and how we really need to meet them at their sophistication level and what we need to give them and say to them. I think it's I think it's so fantastic that we pause because what used to work doesn't work anymore, anyway.

SPEAKER_02: 39:36

100%. The world is changing anyway, like you said. And there's a lot of empowerment in in that space, yes, you know, for you to own on the other side of it. So I'm really glad that you touched on that as well. Because I feel like, you know, if somebody's listening and if there's a woman listening who who like knows, okay, I gotta change something, but yeah, like you said, isn't ready for a full overhaul, can't really just stop completely. Yes. Um, what is that? You know, like what just what's what's a small, honest step, right? That you can take right now, you know, zoom out a little bit, get a different perspective as well. That's always helpful.

SPEAKER_00: 40:16

Even have a conversation with somebody who is willing to give you some real feedback, even if it's not like you hire somebody. Yeah, but the belief that I had that I needed to be the one to pull the thread all the way through in my business for these clients. You know what? I saw that freaking pattern show up in my relationships with my family members, with my son, with my husband, with my friends. Like I was like, oh my God, I like to be in control. I'm an overreflexibility person. So it's like it gave me enough space to say, like, oh, this is showing up in other places. This is not like pleasant to talk about or like it, this was not fun, but it was so good. And I actually feel excited for what's next.

SPEAKER_02: 41:00

Yeah, I'm excited for what's next for you too. I mean, I feel like once you get to that place, because all of this that we're talking about is from programming, it's just your unconscious mind keeping you safe. It's just something along the way that got in there that isn't even really true or your story, but it was just trying to keep you alive and safe. And so when you get to that place, you can really look at it and like kind of appreciate it for a different reason, right? And be like, oh, okay, thank you for thank you for keeping me alive. Exactly. Thank you for trying to protect me. Um, we're good. We're good. We don't have to do this anymore. You know, like it's really like a lot of the reparenting stuff too, because you know, our unconscious minds are like seven-year-old us, essentially. And a lot of us Gen Xers have a lot of, you know, undoing to do. Whether it's a big T or a little T, but yes, a lot of the undoing. I I think that there, you know, there's there's gold in those triggers if you allow yourself.

SPEAKER_00: 41:58

If you let yourself, yes. And I think that um, you know, I I have people in my life who are not interested in doing this kind of healing work at all. These are like family and friends who just like to like like go along to get along. This and it's not for everyone, but when you are someone who sees the pattern, like from my my my burnout pattern, and I'm like, yeah, I can't do this again, it was really worth it to do the hard self-examination. So I guess I would say I'm so happy that I went through this because I can see like a 180-degree difference in what my lifestyle will be like and what my my self-identity will be in the future, which I would say a year ago felt way too conceptual or way too, like way too far out that like, oh my God, I couldn't do that. And even things like how I I actually I have a new client and I was like, this is how it's gonna be. This is what you need. Uh, we're gonna start with this one piece, and uh, this is what I'm gonna deliver. And she was like, That sounds great. Where can I send the check? I'm like, a check, yes, send me a check, right? And uh no, I didn't have to like pay credit card fees on that one. And it was like in the past, I know she needs like all the things for brand, voice, messaging, position. I know she needs like a lot, but I just started with this one little drop. And I also didn't promise her that I was gonna be with her for the rest of her life trying to implement with her. It was literally like I just changed the parameter in my head. And then, like, the next person who got on a call with me, she's like, Oh my god, that sounds exactly like what I need. Like, when can we start? And that is not me bullshitting you. Like, that is the that's where I got to by the end of the year. I love that where I plan on continuing and even making it better and and more honed in.

SPEAKER_02: 43:44

That that's really cool because I wanted to ask you like what what has come up for you, right? Like now that you're at the end of 2025, like what what's sort of like surfacing and dropping in, you know, that you weren't able to really see before because you were so close to. It. You know what I mean?

SPEAKER_00: 44:00

I was so close to it. It's so and some of the stuff that I'm about to say is really hard to admit. I um I attracted an audience of people who love to read and listen to my stuff, but they don't like to buy. And it's because they're at a place in their life where they're just like, I'm not really ready for visibility. I'm introverted. I don't like the spotlight. I don't want to be, and those are all things that I feel too. Like I'm don't I'm extroverted, but I don't love the spotlight. I love a conversation like this, but like it doesn't need to be the me, me, me show. Although maybe somebody listening is like, really, John? Because this has been all about you.

SPEAKER_02: 44:34

Well, that's the intention for this episode, but I get what you're saying.

SPEAKER_00: 44:37

I get it. So I attracted these people who just really didn't. And so I spent two years on, like, you know, have a it's a great lead magnet. It works, it just doesn't bring me the right people. Again, I had to go in and look at it and have like a hard conversation with myself. So where I'm headed is like, well, there are people that do want to do this work, and they might be in the beginning of their business, but they're usually more in the messy middle of their business. And they're like, Yeah, what I'm doing, what I'm saying, how I'm showing up, it doesn't feel good anymore. It doesn't work anymore. I know I need to rework my messaging. I don't even know what that means right now. I want my AI robots to work better for me, but like, what does my brand even sound like? Yeah. How do I position myself? You're a photographer. Like, I hear from photographers all the time like, oh my God, there's a bajillion photographers out there. How am I gonna stand out? So I'll just plunge my prices to the bottom. Like, no, that's not how you position yourself. So it's all of these three things messaging, voice, and positioning that I like pull out of people, but that person has to be ready to actually put it into play then. And I had attracted uh an audience of people who were like, Yeah, I'm gonna stay in my quiet corner being introverted or telling myself that, you know, I don't really need to do this messaging marketing stuff. So where I'm headed is like revamping, and actually, what I'm gonna share with your audience, I'm really excited because I created a diagnostic because I realize what people think when they think marketing, messaging is like, I need to do everything, I need to overhaul it all. And actually, you probably don't. It's really more about the nuances and the subtleties. So I created um like a diagnostic for people to drill down and like which one of these three things do you actually need to pay attention to? And what does that look like? And this is for you if you're ready to actually make those changes. The diagnostic will tell you what to focus on. Awesome. Um, and so that's like just starting there with a different lead magnet to attract the right people. Like that's the first place. And the then having done the the, I would say like the the gardening all year of like pulling the weeds from the the offer, figuring out how I do work with people. I basically work with people in one-off sessions or VIP days because you don't need to be with me for six months to do your messaging. You're also a two-four, you like to go deep. As this, as this this episode, I guess this conversation shows, right? I do like to go deep and uh I don't want to be with somebody for six months when I could get them their results in like a week. So um, those are like those are the changes that I've made, and I never would have believed that I could do that if I hadn't taken this year to just press pause and look, admit some hard things, and then make some changes that I never thought I could really make. Like, who's gonna hire me if I don't unless I stay with them for 30 days? And then this this last client, she was like, that sounds great, no problem.

SPEAKER_02: 47:31

People will pay for efficiency. I'm telling I tell that to photographers all the time. They're like, Well, with all these new programs, we can edit so much faster. I feel bad charging editing. Uh, I'm sorry, if you can get the work done like exponentially faster, don't you think that's more valuable? So it's kind of the same thing.

SPEAKER_00: 47:49

It's like why we're paying for like$24.95 for overnight shipping when you could like do it for a week, right?

SPEAKER_02: 47:54

Yes. Yeah. So yeah, like, you know, it's great if you want to work long term with somebody, but if you can get the results in in a shorter frame of time, uh yeah. So I love that you really had to like you went back, peeled away all these things, right? Like you said, there's a lot of the descaling and you know, removing right of this year. Um, you know, like just kind of cleaning it all out. And in the process, a lot of other stuff, I'm sure, was like bubbling up, and then you have to deal with that. And it's, you know, it's like this little this little like whack-a-mole, sort of like that's such a good way to say it's like, oh, there's that now. But like you said before, yeah, it wasn't necessarily pleasant and fun. But on the other side of it is like what what's the cost of not doing it?

SPEAKER_00: 48:46

Is really well, as you were just saying that, I was thinking, like, God, imagine if I had slogged through the whole year and was going into 2026 saying, gotta do it the same way, gotta continue. Like, oh my God, what a slog! Like it was it was hard either way. It was gonna be hard staying there. It was hard to make these changes, but now it's easier. Like working with this client has been a freaking delight because I pulled the shit out of her head. I designed her messaging playbook, I'm gonna give it to her. She's gonna put it into play. When she wants more, she can come back and we can do the next step. If she doesn't, that's fine.

SPEAKER_02: 49:21

Amazing, right?

SPEAKER_00: 49:22

That's just like I never would have imagined it could have been like that.

SPEAKER_02: 49:25

This is such good stuff and very inspiring. Um, I truly, like just in a in a in a very like, and that's the kind of conversations though, like I want to have, you know, like, yeah, okay, strategy this, strategy that like, right? Like there's a lot of noise out there, but this is the shit that that people are going through. Like, and I think a lot of us are either having whispers now or on our way to full burnout, you know, and and it's so important to pay attention to all of these little pieces that pop up because there's signals for something else. We can choose, it's all a choice. We can choose to listen and pay attention, or we can choose to numb out and you know, push it to the side. But I think that the cost of doing that, especially nowadays, is really, really high, especially as you get older. Your body can't handle that shit.

SPEAKER_00: 50:17

So true, right?

SPEAKER_02: 50:18

Like it's gonna come up and out some some way or another, and it'll show up in in your health usually is is what happens. Yes. And so it's really important to just to stop and at least just pay attention to to those little whispers so that you can create the capacity. Because when we're when we're so like in fight or flight and doing all the things, there's no way we have even room for things to drop in. So that space, that letting go in that space. But I love, I love all of this. I can't wait to hear in another six months or so where you're at and just watching your journey. I'd love to tell you.

SPEAKER_01: 50:57

I love to, I love to see to see all of all of the pieces because I feel like this is all the stuff that's important. This is life, man. This is this is the shit, right?

SPEAKER_00: 51:06

Yes, absolutely. This is it, like this is really the work.

SPEAKER_02: 51:09

This is the work, exactly. Like you said, it will show up in your business if you don't take care of it either. And that's the other piece of it too.

SPEAKER_00: 51:16

And it shows up in your messaging, especially as you know, and your your clients can like if you're talking about a thing and you're just like like energetically, your clients can feel it. They they can so if if you're not talking about what you want to talk about in a way that they need to hear it in a way that feels good to you, that it's like going to be conveyed energetically. And I know that's a super conceptual way to say it, but like there's ways that you're you can talk about what you want to talk about in a way they need to hear, in a way that sounds like you that actually feels good. It does not have to like bring you through the ringer.

SPEAKER_02: 51:48

100%. Thank you for highlighting that as well. Okay, we could, yeah, we we could do this for hours, but um I think this is a perfect place to sort of wrap us up. Tell us again. I know you're gonna have this awesome freebie for us that I will link out to people, but how do you like to connect with people?

SPEAKER_00: 52:06

Well, so I broke up with Instagram and I really just am not there anymore. So you can find me on Instagram, but there's nothing there. What'd you say? Are you happier? I'm much happier. I took uh after the election, I took all social media off my phone. And so that's been two almost a full year now. Um, so but I'm on LinkedIn, Jen Liddy. I'm just on LinkedIn. If you're a LinkedIn person, please find me and tell me that you heard heard Renee and I talking. And you can go to my website and grab the diagnostic. It's just jenlity.com slash um find the gap. It's just basically what you're gonna do is find where the little holes are. Um, but I'm trying to think of where people can reach me if if not LinkedIn. I'm doing Instagram at Hey Jen Liddy, but like I don't post anything there. So sometimes I go to look at pandas and otters and donkeys. My my son will have posted something. So really I'm just there to like check up on him. And but but if you're there, if you want to say hi, you can say hi to us.

SPEAKER_02: 53:03

That's awesome. Yeah, no, for sure. Yeah, we'll put your LinkedIn in the show notes for people to go and check check you out.

SPEAKER_00: 53:10

What a great conversation! Thanks, Renee. This is super fun.

SPEAKER_02: 53:12

I love these conversations. I do too. I do too. I appreciate you. Thank you. Thank you. I think a lot of us can identify with the conversation that Jen and I just had. I know I can identify with it. And I think that this kind of you know, information and these kind of topics are just gonna become more and more important as more of us, women especially, you know, see our businesses change and grow because a lot of us have been at this for a little while. And, you know, the person who started our business, we're not we're not really that person necessarily anymore. Yeah, there's bits and pieces of who she is, but life changes, the world changes, uh, priorities shift. And so it's really important to to assess, right? Like that's one of the biggest reasons why I'm a big believer in doing an every end of year reflection. Even if you're not gonna like set goals and be you know strategic about you know, vision boarding or whatever it is, at least do a reflection, an audit of what it was like, what was what happened, what was good. I in fact, I think it's really good to do it quarterly. You know, once you get into the habit of it, and then it starts to feel a little bit easier to your nervous system too, like, okay, this is safe to do. Um, it's a really great practice to get in. Like what worked, what didn't, either in life and or business. You know, how can I be more present? Are there whispers of something showing up that I've just been suppressing? What's really gonna kind of going on under the surface here that I might not be paying attention to for whatever reason? It's just important to look at all of that with honesty and not judgment, right? Like that's the thing. Like we want that intersapoteur to shut the hell up. Um, that's not the point of this exercise. It's to just look at it for information so that you can at least pay attention to what's going on because that awareness is then what leads you to that next place of, okay, well, what am I gonna do about this? Am I gonna keep going? Am I gonna let it go? And then it's gonna kind of get out of hand. Like, allow yourself some space, right? It would be a great idea to give yourself a day or two every quarter where you just sort of do this kind of exercise, and then you don't put too much on your calendar. You know, you let yourself have a couple of mental health days or whatever you want to call it, or hey, go and have a staycation, you know, go to a local hotel, get away from it. For me, I like to come to my my studio, I call it my genie bottle because I live in a house full of men at this point. And I'm like, I need to go and be in my space and light my candle and you know be in my own energy. And so um, I appreciate you guys for being in my genie bottle with me uh week after week. And I hope that you have a fantastic rest of your week. I hope this conversation with Jen lit something up inside of you. If you want to talk about it more, hit me up in the DMs on Instagram at Renee Bowen. I always love chatting with you or shoot me an email and definitely hit those links below for her. I just I think Jen is just one of the coolest people I've ever met. She's just really real, right? Like she's been in the mixer mine with me this past year. And this is like we we just had like a brief conversation on Zoom once, and I was like, yeah, she's my people. She gets it. And I just love when that happens. And so I I loved this conversation. So I hope you did too. And I hope you guys have a great rest of your week. So be good to yourself. Listen to the whispers. I'll talk to you soon. Love ya, bye.