SPEAKER_02: 0:00

Welcome to Tried and True with the Dash of Woo, where we blend rock solid tips with a little bit of magic. I'm Renee Bowen, your host, life and business coach, and professional photographer. At your service, we are all about getting creative, diving into your business, and playing with manifestation over here. So are you ready to get inspired and have some fun? Let's dive in. Hey, hey, welcome to Tried and True with a Dash of Woo. I am your host, Renee Bowen. Thanks for being here again with me. I appreciate you guys. And really quickly, if you're watching on YouTube, go ahead and hit the subscribe button for me. You might not be subscribed. You might think you are, but you might not be. And that really helps to show a lot. So please subscribe. And if you're listening on Apple or Spotify, please follow the show. So my guest today is Luna Battaglia, and she has really awesome energy. You guys are going to love her. We're super aligned, like in a lot of the different in our backgrounds, especially. She's been working in the online business space for about 15 plus years. And she's worked with a lot of brands, thousands of them throughout the years, on creating their magnetic message and teaching them how to align or realign their strategy without burning out or faking it. Her background bridges design and strategy, spiritual psychology. And that makes the conversation that we had today equal parts, practical and soulful, which, hello, is perfect for the show. Tried and true with a dash of woo. You know a little bit about me, you know that that's kind of what I'm all about. So we dig into all things branding, but she talks about this through a slightly different lens that I know you guys are going to appreciate as creatives because we really do things a little differently. And she speaks a lot to the emotion of what we need to be embedding into our messaging. But I'm going to let her take you guys through this process. And then I'm going to come back at the end and let you know what some of my takeaways are, as well as what I think you could be working on as well. So I'll see you in just a little bit. Let's dig into this conversation that I had with Luna. Hey, Luna, thanks so much for being here. You are going to be so valuable to my audience. Like I know that everything that we kind of talk about is pretty aligned. So I'm very excited to dive into this topic of messaging and branding, which is like your zone of genius. But tell us really quickly, why is that your zone of genius? Like what drew you to this? What do you love about it? A little bit of behind the scenes there first.

SPEAKER_01: 2:30

I've always been an artist. My friends, my ex-husband, they all have this funny story about meeting my grandma and my grandma telling them about I was an only child. They would be like, she would just doodle and doodle for hours at this table. And I kept myself occupied by creating things, by getting Girl Scout badges, by learning new things, by creating art, only child around all adults, and drawing and art and creativity and making things was always my jam as a kid. And then became a fashion designer and shifted into had a spiritual awakening, shifted into healing arts, shifted into coaching. And the the branding came really, really easy to me. The aesthetic, the copywriting, all of it was very natural. And in my master's program, all of my classmates were kind of bringing their practices to life and putting themselves out there. And they were like, who does your website? Who does this for you? And I was like, I do. Doesn't everybody like just thinking that that's and they were like, no. Um, and so I just started to create brands and websites for friends and my classmates. And I did it, I didn't want to be acknowledged. I was like, don't post on Facebook. Like this was many, many years ago when the Facebook was a thing. I was like, don't let anybody know. Like, I don't want like a credit anywhere because I have a different business that I want people to come to me for for depth coaching and counseling. And this is, you know, professional and I don't want to be associated, but it was this kind of financial side hustle that was supporting me during my graduate school. And when COVID happened, no one was investing. No one was like, yeah, here's$15,000 to go do a six-month mentorship deep dive into my inner world. Like it just wasn't what people were doing. And so I put out an offer around branding and messaging, and all these people were taking their skills, wanting to take their skills online and not really knowing how to get, and it just blew up. I tripled my income and it kind of just put me on a new path. And it was actually a big relief for me. I didn't really know how much I needed a break from the depth going in the trenches with people. I worked in addiction care and in the incarcerated community and have a hybrid practice. And I didn't know until I got out of it by default, by COVID happening, that I really needed a break. So wow. It kind of just found me and I adapted and life just life as it does. And I was like, this feels right for now. And then it just became the whole thing. And it's been such a beautiful blessing to support so many women in this way. And like have a little piece of my hands and the legacy and brands and businesses that they're birthing, just to like be a little bit of service to that is like wow, the ripple effects are truly endless.

SPEAKER_02: 5:19

That's a really, really beautiful story. Like how you kind of, I mean, you're going back to the roots, right? Like you grew up in the very creative way. You were always sort of that artist. And now I love how you were just like, okay, well, I'm just gonna try this. So many creatives, we've talked about this a lot on the show. I think we're very multi-passionate, right? That's kind of the problem. We see it as a problem. But then if you can start just viewing it as like a superpower, you have a whole different perspective. Because so many creatives come to me and they're like, I have too many ideas, I have too many things like this. And then in the middle of everything, I'm just gonna build my website. Like, you know what I mean? Like all of these things I think we feel bombarded by. And we feel like we we need to put ourselves into like one category, one niche. But this is like a great testimony to yes, you can do all of these different things. And then you, I mean you, I think you were getting a master's in, was it spiritual psychology or something like that? Yeah. And so you were down this path, but then you were also open, I think, which is very always a big key, you know. Always like what else? What else? What else is there?

SPEAKER_01: 6:28

I'm not even asking what else. I know there's so much more all the time that God, life, universe, word of choice for you, like it's just gonna drop into place at the perfect timing. And my job is just to trust that and say yes and move at the speed of trust. And uh, I'm a very ambitious person, but almost like take my ambition out of it and just kind of see what happens and ride the waves. And it's life has been good by following that motto, and lots of things have come into my life with just so many blessings by just following that. Like, wow, this thing arrived, and I'm I'm here to say yes.

SPEAKER_02: 7:04

Yeah, it's like following the breadcrumbs, right? Like not knowing exactly where it's gonna be, but just being open to receive whatever God universe, your choice of word, is there, right? And so I did want to ask you really quick too, because at the top you're like, I just was sort of like, you know, good at this, like good at the website thing, good at the design of it, had fun doing it, like absolutely enjoyed doing it. You know, so many people, I feel like we start that way as creatives. We start like, oh, like photographers in my audience, they're just good at it, right? Like, and so, and then all of a sudden, like this happened to me too. People were like, Oh, you're good at it. Can you do that for me? And I'll pay you. And that's how we 100, yeah, that's what happened. Yeah, to start a business. It's usually that at that point, right? Like, so there are some people, like, and I'm very much like you. Like, I I sort of like, oh, doesn't everybody just do their own website? Isn't this fun for everybody? But I'm an I love art. I was also a very artsy kid, all that kind of stuff. And I'm also techie. That's the other piece of it. Like, I am interested in the tech piece of it. So that was kind of like it itched a different part of my brain, right? So I find that there are some people who are just like they take naturally to it like that, like us, the majority of people are like, oh shit, now I need to like do all of this stuff. Like I have to like have a real business and a website and a strategy. And like have no idea, well, I don't know what I'm doing. I'm just like being me. I'm being creative, right? And so I'm sure you see that a lot in what you do in terms of like helping people refine that messaging. And and what I really kind of want to get into here, because again, this is a very big topic, is we are so bombarded right now with like there's no lack of content. And that can be super distracting for people with very creative, active brains. We think we need to be doing this or this or this. But you talk about really rooting into like messaging as the root system. And and I talk about it too in a little bit different way. So I'd love to hear why do you say messaging is the root system and not the layer on top?

SPEAKER_01: 9:10

Yeah. I want to go back to what you shared about the and answer your question. Go go back to the piece around people starting with like an offer, like somebody being like, oh, you can do this. And I'm like, yeah. And I think a lot of times, especially women, they have a creative idea or an invitation and it makes money, and they think they have a business. But you don't. You have an offer. You have an offer that did well once or twice, and eventually that structure of the business needs to come in and the strategy and the brand strategy and the messaging and all those pieces, visual identity, all the the whole full scope of what we offer, what I offer. And I think that that people can look at something and be like, oh, I have a business. And I'm like, you have an offer, and the business piece is the the strategy, what goods and services you're exchanging for cash or Bitcoin or gold or whatever you want. That's the business strategy. How are you doing that? The marketing, the brand strategy is how do I express myself as a business, as a brand in the world? What is the space that I take up, the voice that I use, the thing that is uh attracting and magnetizing people to me? And I think that an offer can be confused for both of those things and that there's actually so many layers. And so once we get to the brand piece, I believe messaging is the foundation. I was on a call the other day with a brand person and they're like, visual identity is where you start. I'm like, interesting. How can you start there if you don't understand the audience and their desires and the emotions that are trying to be evoked through the content and the copy and the brand presence? Then to me, that's all messaging. So if you don't know your audience and the emotional needs and desires of that audience and the also the personality of the brand and the foundations of the brand, the mission, the values, the things that is that it's built on, you're gonna pick fonts and colors without that information. That seems silly. And then when we build a website, I always say copy dictates design. So I always can do it the other way around. I can put the visuals, but there's something about having the copy because that's what's converting them. You can have the most beautiful website with the prettiest pictures, but the copy is going to be what makes the sale. And so I want that to be the feature and then kind of put the supporting beautiful roles around it that aren't pulling too much from it, not try to fit my copy into a design or even a brand identity, but to really have the messaging as the foundation. So that's that's how I start. That's how I've always done it. And every time a client wants to start somewhere else and do messaging later for whatever reason, schedule, calendar, whatever. We always are like, man, should have started here. So I've I've collected enough of that data to just not do that.

SPEAKER_02: 12:08

Yeah, yeah. No, when I work with photographers in particular and with just creatives in general, I always tell people, like, strategy is great, but unless you really feel connected to what the heck you're actually about, what you're saying, like what you believe, all of these things, like you're gonna feel very scattered. You're gonna you're out, you're gonna be very uh easily influenced by all of the stuff that's out there and try on all of these different visuals. So I agree, like I think a lot of people do feel like they go that way first, and then they start realizing over time that that's a little backwards way to do it. So if you're out there listening to this and you're in the process of doing this, start start at the heart of it. Like, what about you makes you you? And how do you want your audience to feel and all of that? But we're gonna kind of get into a little bit of more of that in a minute. I kind of wanted to jump into a little bit while we're on this topic of the messaging and the copy and how important it is because it actually is what converts people. You talk about buyer psychology as well. And so, you know, how does that buyer psychology shift when your messaging feels really coherent and resonant instead of just like performative?

SPEAKER_01: 13:20

Yeah. I mean, if we go back to this idea, just foundationally to build on it of the offer, the business and the brand being different and kind of building that way and seeing those things as separate things. You have to understand that you're excited, not you, but like, you know, people that listen, um, that you're excited about your business, you're excited about the offer, you're excited to tell people about the service that you provide. But the audience, the reader, they're self-centered. They've got a problem. They're not, they don't care about what you're doing. They just want to know that it can solve their problem. They're very like me, me, me energy. And so if you're focusing on the offer and you're really clear about this mastermind program that came through and your dream, and you want to, you wrote it all down in the middle of the night and you want to offer it, that's great. But if you center the offer and and like you're selling the offer, right? You're selling a service instead of selling an experience and the impact and the problem solving, all of that has to do with the audience, their needs, their desires, their challenges. And that's all messaging. Yes, the part of the messaging is being able, honestly, none of the messaging is like the nuts and bolts of what is delivered in on us for the offer sales page for those like specific things like the date, the price, like none of that's messaging. It's what is the story we're telling that is painting a picture sensorially about the experience that they, the reader, has the opportunity to step into. So, what is the world? What is the brand universe that you're building that people can step into that world, like a VR headset and be like, whoa, this is my vibe. I was saying before we pressed record, you popped on Zoom and I was like, Oh, I just entered your world. You know, I'm a beige girl living in a beige world. That's my vibe, you know, that's my world. You got the thing going on, and like everything was I stepped into your world. There's a brand universe that you've created that the people who are aligned with you are gonna be like, I totally vibe with her and I love being here. Part of that is the visuals. A lot of it is what is the message that is telling the viewer, reader, the revolution that you're creating? And they get to go, yes, I want to hop on that train. And so I'm always thinking about it as like, what's the world you're building and what is the experience that it's giving people? That's the focus. What is the experience? Because the experience should match the container. So working with you and reading an Instagram post, reading a newsletter, going to your website, working with you as a contractor, like everything should be congruent brand-wise. The value should be felt, the emotional evocation should be felt consistently and say your contents like super like archetypally like maternal and nurturing. And then you get in a container and there's like all this kind of tough love energy that I didn't feel here because maybe the brand voice was like scared to put that out there marketing-wise. But then on the inside, I'm like, whoa, this isn't what I signed up for. Or you treat your contractors not nice and like whatever, you know, you think your time is more valuable. These kinds of things, everything across the board has to be consistent. So the messaging is four parts. The first is the foundations. That's like mission, values, vision, your motivation, all of that, the relationships that you have. The second is the brand personality. Like, who are we as a brand? We need to establish these things internally and then go outward first, so that it's really about your, the brand's expression. So the second piece is personality, that's like archetypes, tone, expression, POV. And then the third piece is audience, all about them. Demographics, psychographics, design, like the psychographics is all the emotional pieces. And then the fourth part is storytelling. What is the story that you're telling that is connecting you as the brand and the audience together? Like what that story is what bridges the two together. We can talk about them separately, but then the story is really what does that. And the story is so much of what creates the brand world. Story is the way that we have created since the beginning of time, taught lessons, parenting, everything is through come by the fireside and let me tell you a story. And so we're constantly doing that with our messaging. And I think that that's a big piece of why we can see these things separately, but message is what weaves it all together.

SPEAKER_02: 17:53

One thing that I hear, and I want to ask you about this, because I know that this is going to come up in somebody's mind when they're listening to this, especially if they're a photographer, a creative in general artists, artists, really, right? Um, when we're creating something, it's really personal to us. Even if it's like a we're a portrait photographer, right? It's our work. And so there's all of this other, I find, emotion wrapped up into it most of the time, where you take like all of this, like you take everything, right? It's not like people have a hard time separating like their business or their offer from this piece of art that they created. And so a lot of times what I hear, especially in terms of like what to post or what to like have on their site to show these visuals of their work, they have a very difficult time separating themselves from that because they're too close to it. So that's why I it's very beneficial to work with someone else in that in with that respect, because you need to sort of sometimes hand that over. You know, like we as artists tend to be a little too like wrapped up into the emotions behind it. But what do you suggest if someone let's say someone wants to work with you or someone, you know, to help them do this, but they can't yet.

SPEAKER_01: 19:04

What where where do we where do they start? I think the first piece that you were speaking to is identifying as your business versus relating to it and with it, and really separating ourselves as like, oh, I'm in service to the mission. I'm a steward of this business. It's not me, it's not about me. Yes, it's my body of work, but on the side of the work, I'm so much more as a being. This is just one little path. And I think of businesses like creating anything, creating art, creating a child, birthing a child into the world, you're there to steward it. And it it is, it came from you, but it's separate. It's its own thing. And so your business is something that you've created. And to really be like, oh, once, once the like perfectionism, how are gonna people gonna see me, I wanna be seen kind of script comes in, it's a great cue to be like, oh, what's the mission I'm in service to? Because it's really not about us and how we're seen. And I would say that your website, which I ate perused fairly well, was like, by the way, it said seniors, and like I expected it to be old folks.

SPEAKER_00: 20:13

Yeah, a lot of people do.

SPEAKER_01: 20:14

Yeah, and then I was like, oh, this, and then I got there and I was like, this makes so much sense. Like it was so great. And the, but the when I got there, the story that you're telling the parents andor seniors who are visiting that, it's a whole world where there's an experience. The visuals give that, but the copy really paints the picture of the experience the senior is going to have and why it's important and it evokes all this emotion. And it was just perfection. It invites them into a world. And I like that because it's a different offer, each one had like the brand world, and then each offer kind of creates another little subworld. And that's how our houses are like lots of things. There's like an umbrella, and then there's little sections that have different vibes, like my office looks different than my kitchen. Yeah. So yeah, I feel like it's really separating ourselves and really being in service to what is this thing, whether it's the offer or the business as a whole, the brand as a whole that wants to come through and being like, okay, how can I serve it, its expression, not my expression? That's like a big part of my approach.

SPEAKER_02: 21:18

Yes. Well, I I really appreciate you putting it into that metaphor too of the house, because another thing that happens a lot with us creatives is that, and myself included, I'm not making 12 different Instagram accounts. I'm not doing it. Like I know I don't have the capacity for that. So I'm gonna have to figure out a way to make all of these things that I want to do like work in one place because I know what I'm actually going to be really capable of. But I also at the heart of it really wanted there to be a golden thread of that brand world. Like you no matter what you're coming to me for, right? Because, like, yes, I started out as a photographer, but even back then, like 20 years ago. You know, I couldn't get ReneBowen.com at that time. I could only get Renee Bowen photography because some woman in the Midwest who made dolls had ReneBowen.com.

SPEAKER_00: 22:07

And I was like, but I want like looking up their email address behind the scenes, like, how can I get convinced you?

SPEAKER_02: 22:15

Exactly. And I now have a leaf blower. So let me know if you can hear that. Okay. But yeah, so I I remember just thinking, even early on, well, what if I don't want to do photography forever? Right? Like, what if I want to do something else? I want to have like either my a business name or my name so that I can have the freedom to choose what I wanted to do. And so I was already kind of thinking about it back then. But then it got like, okay, now, you know, I kind of like decided to turn into, you know, more into coaching. And but photographers have this dilemma a lot because, okay, they might specialize in high school seniors, but they also want to shoot branding and headshots. And they're like, I have to make a whole new site for that. And I'm like, whoa, I mean, do this.

SPEAKER_01: 23:02

Let's dive into that. So there's always a thread when we have different audiences. So I have three as an example. I have three different types of people I serve. I have the people who've been in business for 15 years, they've been super successful. They're they start to outgrow their brand. They're 15 years older and what they created. They might, it's like a sweater that doesn't fit, and they want the rebrand. Then there's the person who's coming out of corporate who has all this success that they want to step into thought leadership and do their own thing and not be under somebody else's rules. And then there's the person who's just getting started who knows that investing in this step up front is going to be that's that's their approach. I would say it's more valuable to be able to do that, but that's not true for everyone. So those kind of three people. So when I separate that, and I'm using this as an example to help people could okay, define their different audiences of people who they work with. You might do, I have a friend who's photographer. She does real estate housing, uh, photography, and then brand photography, and then much more like women in nature, magical, you know, gritty, and one website. And she's also felt this like, should I separate this? And you know, the real estate we have a little bit of a separation, but the personal brand, it's it's like, what is the thread that all these people have in common? If you have to write out a list of three columns and write all the different qualities, desires, needs, fears, um, inner conflicts, longings, uh, what is the thing that connects them all? You're not speaking to the demographic necessarily. It's good to have that information. Women 33 to 50, da-da-da-da-da, living in these types of areas. If you're locationally based, which a lot of photographers are, those demographics are good, but that's not really when you're writing copy what you're thinking about. You're thinking about the emotional needs of that person, what you, what the emotion that you want them to feel, and then the emotion that they want to feel. And sometimes they're the same, but oftentimes they're different. And so I would say when you have different audiences, you're looking for that, like you called it the golden thread that connects all these different people. And so for me, these women, the thing that connects them all is that they want, they are moved by something bigger than them to leave a contribution that even if they weren't getting paid, even if they weren't making money, they would still give their time and energy to bring this work, this contribution to the world because they believe in it. They want to make an they want to make the world a better place. They want to help people, they care about their legacy and not that it's their legacy, me, my name attached to it, but that the work lives on beyond them and impacts people with that kind of ripple effect that we talked about in the beginning. And so if I speak to that, I can speak to all of them at once, especially for like my home page and my general marketing. I need to speak to that consistently because it's the thread that ties them all together. Then when they get to specific offers, you know, these kind of products might be better for the new people and this higher ticket might be better for one of these, or coaching might be better for the corporate people getting out. It can kind of speak a little bit more to one or the other on those sales pages, which are the rooms in the house. But the house in general, I'm speaking to the golden thread. What is the thing that connects all of these people together? And it's usually emotional. For sure.

SPEAKER_02: 26:31

Yeah. So that's a really, really good point for you guys listening to like if you take nothing else, which where to which she's dropping lots of lots of great tips here. But that's a very, very, I think probably one of the most important things to realize is because those of us with I call it spicy brains, a lot of creatives have oh, I love that spicy brains. You can call it ADHD or not, whatever. Like some people are diagnosed, some people are not, but we we tend to have a lot of thoughts, we tend to have a lot of ideas, we tend to have a lot of things that we want to do, right? I don't know if you do you know your human design, are you into human design at all?

SPEAKER_01: 27:06

I mean, I know I'm a generator. Okay, yeah. So I'm a generator. I don't know, or like anything else. Right. People have told me so many times, and it just doesn't stick like Russian. It just like I can't grasp it.

SPEAKER_02: 27:17

It's a very big topic. Like I will tell you that right now. Like, you know what I mean? You could study for years and just be sort of scratching surface level, but like I and I'm not certified in it because I've cut myself off from getting my certificate.

SPEAKER_01: 27:28

I'm an Enneagram person.

SPEAKER_02: 27:29

Yeah, exactly. So, but I find that in my coaching or just my communities and just in it creatives, a lot of creatives in general tend to be manifesting generators, which is a lot of, you know, they're known to have a lot, a lot of ideas, and not all of them necessarily are for them to do. Sometimes they're the visionary, and it's to like give some of those away. But all that to say, we tend to have a lot of ideas. And I'm not a manifesting generator, I am a generator, but I have a lot of ideas. I have a lot of things that I want to do, and I have a lot of people I want to serve. And so a lot of times we can get really wrapped up in, we can get stuck there, basically. We can't, we, you know, we can kind of get to that place where we're like, like you said, I don't know how I'm gonna make all these five, even just five different niches of photographers, let's say, because like I have a client right now, a photography client, and she she shoots seniors, branding, beauty, you know, sort of like boudoir, um, not very many events and sports, you know.

SPEAKER_00: 28:31

Oh, cool.

SPEAKER_02: 28:32

Wow. And so she loves all of them, they're connected, right? And so that's what you said. Like it's it's getting to like the foundation level there of like what is this golden thread that's gonna connect all of these pieces so that it feels cohesive. Because if it doesn't feel cohesive to you, you're gonna feel scattered. You're not even gonna know how to talk about it.

SPEAKER_01: 28:50

Yeah, I want to piggyback on this for a second because what we what I offered first is like what's the golden thread of the different audiences? So that's the one consistency that's there. But you also need what's the one point of view. So if I'm giving a TED talk, so the we talked about the audience needs and their emotional thing, and we're we're boiling that down to like one, one to three kind of small overlapping things that is like one statement that connects all these people, but the brand should have that one statement too. So I use the analogy of if I was giving a TED talk and I was bare to shift the perspective of the audience from thinking like this to thinking like this, what is the one thing I want them to walk away and take away? And that's kind of like the umbrella of the brand message. And there's lots of different ways to articulate that that are gonna encompass your messaging, but that golden thread for the audience, you need one for your brand as well. Like, what is that one thing that I want to be known for? With all of my I do sports and beauty and this, and I'm gonna go give a TED talk. Like, what is the thing about capturing these moments that I want to articulate as a brand that is the one thing I'm known for? If I was writing a book, what is the one thing, the theme that is gonna be people are gonna take away from this and they're gonna shift their perspective from thinking previously like this to the new thing? And that is the point of view that it should be singular. You can't really have the like many pillars of that.

SPEAKER_00: 30:21

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 30:21

There will be stuff underneath, and those are those are often just like approaches, offers, things like that. But there's this one thing that it you're repeating as the kind of core message.

SPEAKER_02: 30:32

For sure. No, I love this. And I and I love that we're on the same page about that because I really feel strongly about that. That's one of like the things that I might die on that hill kind of thing. You know what I mean? It's like, no, this is like that important. And it does help so much with that what I was just talking about of feeling really scattered and feeling really overwhelmed by um all the things, you know, whether it's what you see online or just your own ideas. Sometimes it can feel like just it's too much. But if you have clarity up front on that and you feel connected to it, that's the other part of it too. It's like this connection piece. And you talk about this a lot too, of like not just yourself feeling connected to it, but like how your audience, like you said before, feels when they experience your brand world. Like that's a very, very, very important piece of it that is all tied to emotions. So, what's what's a simple audit that creatives can do to see if their brand feels alive or fragmented?

SPEAKER_01: 31:30

Yeah, I think there's two approaches to this. There's one that's more internal and one that's more external. Like if I was a consultant coming in and auditing, looking from that perspective, that they can do themselves. But first, internal. And so, you know, we're you were mentioning the feeling connected to the heart of it, the mission, the audience themselves, the brand. And there's so much input from everywhere else of like Instagram and marketing ideas that say you should do it this way and this way and this way, and peers in the way that there are this photographer is doing it and that photographer is doing it, and thinking that you need to do it like them because they're successful. So if you copy them that their strategy, then you'll have the same type of success. First is if you're feeling overwhelmed and you can't find your message or it feels difficult. First look is am I connected to why I started in the first place? Yeah, connected to what the heart of this brand is really offering, to that kind of core message. Or have I kind of established that once in a brand messaging session and got the brand messaging guide and then put it to the side. And then I'm just inundated with all these things. And I, you know, so it's always plugging back in to the heart of it. My work is honestly a lot about intimacy, intimacy with yourself, your brand, your message, your audience, all of these pieces. And so that's like where I would start from internally. Externally, I would be like, Are you getting on the phone with people who want to work with you? And they're confused, and you're answering the same questions over and over again. And the call should be like, Great, I went over your website and I'm really clear. I want to work with you. What are the next steps? If your calls are not like that and you're answering some repetitive questions or people are not clear, it's because your messaging isn't doing the work on the front end to kind of qualify them as the right type of clients. And so people are like, they're confused, and then they come and then you're spending this discovery call time answering questions that your copy and site and other content could have answered already. So that the call is just like, cool, I'm really excited to get together. I had a question about this, you answer it. And then it's like, what are the next steps? You know, how do I pay you? So look for those things internally and externally. And oftentimes it's that's to me messaging. Your messaging should be qualifying people and saying people are reading it and being like, oh, cool, this isn't a fit. This isn't really for me. Or she's totally my vibe. I love this. I love that she dropped an F-Bomb on her sales page, or like whatever the thing is that makes you you, whether it's just the ownership of the expression, or and that that boldness doesn't need to be like neon colors and crazy fonts and whatever. It's just your version of it, whatever that is for you, is fully owning it. And just people, people want to know that you feel confident in your ability to solve their problem. They have to feel your confidence that you're not questioning yourself in any way. And your messaging will have little subtle, energetic and verbal ways that you kind of communicate if there is that doubt or lack of clarity there. And so I would say internal, and are you confused? Are you inundated by messages? Are you allowing it to be like, oh, I need a new brand strategy every five weeks or two weeks or two days? And then are you having calls with people where you're answering the same kinds of questions? Those are the two places I would start.

SPEAKER_02: 35:04

Yeah, those really great feedback tips. And you brought something up too, touched on something a little bit that I want to kind of dive a little bit deeper into. Is this kind of like the visibility piece of it, right? Because like a lot of creatives also have a hard time standing in that, right? So, yes, I agree. Like I always tell people like you want your copy, you want all of that to do the bulk of the work for you. Like, I I want people to, I want to make it easy for them, first of all, right? To pay me and to like I love nothing more than when I get on a call with somebody and they're like, I'm ready, like I'm done. Just tell me what, literally tell me what the next steps are. Like, I've already like consumed all your stuff. I've been on your site, I've listened to your podcast, like I'm in. And I'm like, oh my God, yes. Because that tells me, like, okay, that's working, right? But it takes a little bit to sort of like refine that. And I really believe that the other piece of it is that you you gotta stand in that confidence, like you said, of who the heck you are and be willing to really go there with yourself and with your audience because it can't just be surface level anymore. We've got too much shit out there. Like there's so many people, right? I'm just always talking about like there's all the markets are saturated. It's not just yours. Okay. There's a lot of people doing everything. What's making you stand out? What's making you really connect with that person? And I think a big piece of it is is that creatives have a hard time. They like to water themselves down, basically, right? And sort of like make it more palpable and like, you know, easy to digest or whatever. But what do you say to creatives or someone who feels like they have to do that in order to be visible?

SPEAKER_01: 36:46

I mean, first of all, you're you're gonna just look like everybody else, especially if there is that muscle of, oh wow, this person that I admire in my field who's successful, like this is what they're doing. And so we kind of mimic and model that, then it's like, well, you don't stand out. And there's probably a bunch of other people copying that person in in their own way, too. And you kind of just fit right in. So there's obviously visual ways to do that, like papa chartreuse, a fun, big font, like the way that you say something. Um, I have an analogy. There was like a thing in the coaching industry of these like sequin suits. Like, wow, like everyone's doing a photo shoot in a sequin suit. And it's just like cool. Once everyone's doing it, is it is it's not interesting anymore. It's not making you stand out, it's not unique. And it also happened like 18 months ago that the first person who kind of did this stood out, and you're just getting on board now, and we're already over it. So it really has to come from an authentic, like it's such a cheesy, like doesn't mean anything word anymore, but this internally motivated, not externally motivated. If it's if it's like, oh, I'm a mimicking, I think this is a good idea, I'm not sure, but they're doing it, it's not it. It has to come from the brand entity. And so it's getting really quiet and listening to what wants to come forward and be shared. And I think that that confidence piece is is also about the being service to. It's like, what is the mission? Because you were picked. I guarantee you, I know that there's a lot of entrepreneurs out there, but in the in the grand scheme of the world or even domestically in the United States, most people have their jobs. There's actually not that many entrepreneurs ratio-wise, but it feels like there's a ton because it's your world. And you're you, you know, you not that you're competing, but you're it's saturated, like you said. And so this kind of like standing out is like you were chosen to bring this work, this type of photography into the world in only the way you can. Like the muse taps you on the shoulder and was like, hey, you, Renee, I want to create something in the world with you. And only your energy and my energy together is gonna be creating this. And like a romantic relationship might thrive, you gotta be all in. You can't be like someone wants to take you out on a date and you're like, yeah, maybe that's a nice. You gotta show up and get, you know, get ready and be your best self and show up all the way and like be excited and engage. And your business is the same way, and it's going to thrive when there's that quality of intimacy, that full yes. And if you're not sure, people feel it. Like if I was dating and I'm like, I'm not really sure about this person, they're gonna lose interest. I mean, if it's a trauma response, they might gain more interest, and then we're in a whole different loop. But that's not when they say the power. The right person is gonna be like, I'm I want someone who's all in. And your business feels the same way and your audience feels the same way. And when that little bit of I'm not sure about myself is there, people are gonna feel it, whether it's outspoken or not, even if it's just energetic tendrils in it. But it's it's like, oh, what why was I picked? Why was I picked to bring this into the world? I have gifts, I have a unique lens of viewpoints, seeing things in a certain way where like nobody's doing this, or I'm relating with these type of women and they're coming to life in their shoots, and it's making this kind of experience. It's like you have to. I always like to say, get a file of your testimonials, and whenever you're feeling so you just pop it open and read some and be like, oh yeah, like this is what people want from me. This is how people are moved, and it's about the work, it's about the thing that's coming through you that you're offering. It's not even really about you, it's about the fact that you are saying yes fully to your holy work. And so when that's coming up, I'm like, plug back in. What's the mission? What's the motivation? What inspired you? What was that thing that originally encouraged you to start the business in the first place? Go back to that.

SPEAKER_02: 41:12

100% like yes to all of that. It's so important, it truly is. And I always tell people like, if your business is gonna just be a reflection of how you feel about yourself at the end of the day, right? So, I mean, yeah, you might think that's one of the reasons why I went back and got certified. Like, yes, I have a degree in psychology, but like, and it's so I've always been into that stuff. But I, you know, I had people coming to me for business coaching, for strategy, and like that's we gotta go deeper than that first. Like, we gotta, we gotta, like you said, it's like an intimate sort of exchange there. And and it is vulnerable. And yeah, the word authentic, I also feel the same way about it, but it it is true. Like there has to be, you have to be connected to that yourself, right? Because everything else is just gonna kind of show up surface level, otherwise, and you're just gonna blank.

SPEAKER_01: 41:59

Yeah, you can it can feel when someone's like, oh, I think this is a good idea. So I'm gonna try it versus like this is my creative inspiration that I'm bringing to life. Even if it's just a post or a blog, it's like you can feel, I think I'm gonna try this. I think it's a good idea versus like, holy moly, there's this thing that needs to be said or this way that it needs to be said, and I have to bring it through. And like, you need more of that.

SPEAKER_02: 42:25

I agree. I agree. So I want to wrap it up by just kind of touching on because you do offer various things for people with all of these topics we were talking about specifically to messaging, but there's something that you have for for our listeners to tell us about what that is and who it's for, basically.

SPEAKER_01: 42:44

Right. Yeah. I mean, as you said, I do a lot of things. I have a personal mentorship that's for women in that personal professional intersection where business strategy and the deeper work, like you were talking about. And then I started a brand studio called Career Creative, and that's like the full spectrum branding services, messaging, visual identity, business and brand strategy and websites. And then within that, I created basically my 15 years of doing messaging work and the process that I would go through with clients one-on-one and distilled it into a self-paced course called Messenger. And because it's the foundation of all of the branding and obviously what we've been talking about today, that course is really a great place to get started, whether you're new andor your business has been established and you feel a little disconnected from it. It has the whole animus branding and businesses entity approach. So if you vibed with kind of my approach to what I've been saying about how to relate to your business, that's kind of the foundation of the course beyond just helping you distill the message, which it obviously also does. And it's called Messenger, it's master the art of being heard. And it's about, you know, you sharing, but really how is what you're sharing in a way that people are able to receive you better. And it's much more magnetic than coming to you, stepping into that brand warm. Hearing the message and feeling alive and turned on by that message. So Woo is a code that your audience can have to get 10% off on that course. Messenger, it's a great place to start. And yeah, I'm like, I'm such a messaging nerd. I'm all the things, but like I'm always like, start here. I promise it's gonna pay off. Everyone's like, I want to pick my colors.

SPEAKER_02: 44:22

Yeah, I know. The artists like to have fun with them. I totally get it. But this is a very important piece. So yeah, we'll put the link in the show notes for people uh with the code with there. So in case you guys forgot it, but it's woo. It's not, it's not, it's easy to remember. Uh so thank you for giving us that, for giving the audience that. And then how do you like to connect with people otherwise? Is it Instagram or you're like where do you like to connect?

SPEAKER_01: 44:47

Yeah, I hang out in two places. One is Instagram, my handles at LunaBatalia, and then my website, lunaloveleadership.com. So perfect. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 44:55

Thank you so much for sharing all your knowledge today. That was super helpful.

SPEAKER_01: 45:01

Thanks so much for having me. It's been such a pleasure to connect with you.

SPEAKER_02: 45:04

Okay, so I had some really good takeaways. Here is just a little bit of what I think we need to be thinking about after this. First of all, I love the four pieces of this messaging breakdown, the foundation, the personality, the audience, and then the storytelling and how all those pieces really do need to work together and build on each other. I love specifically talking about the foundation piece of it because if you've worked with me at all, you know that no matter where you're at, whether you're coming to me as a 15-year business owner or a brand new business owner or somebody who wants to even start a business, we're gonna start with your purpose and your why, because it isn't about you. That's the other takeaway from here is that she mentioned Alice a couple of times, right? The more we make it about ourselves, the more we stay up here in our head, and the more we spin and overthink. And nothing really good happens up there. But if we get connected to our purpose, our deeper sense of purpose, and I mean like why you're here as a human, why are you here on earth? What is the legacy you want to leave? Then we can start connecting the dots to how you want to make your audience, your target client, how you want to make them feel, how you want to portray the story of your brand. And that's how we create that golden thread, right? That's literally what I call it in my coaching. It is a very big piece of what I do. And if you miss this step or you don't go deep enough, because that's the kicker. Most people that I work with, even one-on-one, left to our own devices, we're not going to go deep enough into this because we're gonna kind of stop where we feel like, okay, that that sounds about right. But when you work with me anyway, and work with anyone who is trained to sort of like do this, I think it's identity work, you're gonna go, you're gonna go deeper. We're gonna go, we're gonna go back. We're gonna go back to some beliefs. Uh I think that a lot of this lives in our unconscious mind. And we need to bring it to the surface so that you can feel connected to not just your brand, but you need to feel connected to yourself, your higher sense of purpose, so that you can weave this into the messaging for your brand and what you do in the world and the service that you provide. Because we're all here to be of service. I really believe that. So that was a really big takeaway for me. And then, of course, the piece about not watering yourself down, because you're just gonna fit in with the masses, and that's not how we want to create resonance, true, deep resonance. So, all of these things I think are so important. And I think that this was a really great reminder, uh, even for those of us who know this information. So, she also gave you guys a really good tip on how to like sort of audit that with your own website, with your own messaging, uh, just so you can get a good temperature gauge of like where you're at with all of this. It's important, it really is. And I love, love, love the little piece that we touched on about not having to create five different sites for five different interests. It's one of my really big things. So many of us are multi-passionate, and we have so many either businesses or offers or just hobbies that may one day turn into a business. And I want the freedom to be able to do that personally, and I want you to have that freedom as well without feeling like now I've got to create all this extra work for myself to become a strategist. No, what is your golden thread? What is that core, core piece of emotion that you're trying to connect with people? And she put it very beautifully in terms of like if you were on a TED stage, what would be that one thing that would convert people from where they are to where you want them to be, essentially? So I hope this episode resonated deeply with you. And if it did, let me know. You can go to ratethispodcast.com slash Renee Bowen, leave a rating and a review. I'd love to hear from you. You can leave comments on YouTube. Like I said, please do subscribe there as well. Or hit me up on Instagram, just at Renee Bowen. I'd love to chat with you in the DMs. And if my little robot pops in and says, hey, Renee's not here right now, here's some info. Just know that I will be checking those messages too. But hey, we gotta have automations so that we can have a life. Seriously. Thanks again for being here. If you loved this episode, tell a friend. And I'll talk to you guys soon. Have a great rest of your week. Love you. Bye.