SPEAKER_00 0:00

The thing is, your brand is going to fill quickly with the right people and in the right way that makes you feel good and you will be so in touch with them that you'll understand these things and you'll they'll respond when you ask questions and you'll know what to lean into.

Why Marketing Feels So Cold

Meet Laura And Radical Hospitality

SPEAKER_01 0:16

Welcome to Tried and True with the Dash of Woo, where we blend rock solid tips with a little bit of magic. I'm Renee Bowen, your host, life and business coach, and professional photographer. At your service, we are all about getting creative, diving into your business, and playing with manifestation over here. So are you ready to get inspired and have some fun? Let's dive in. Hey, hey, welcome back to Tried and True with a Dash of Woo. I'm Renee Bowen, your host. Today's conversation is one that I know a lot of you guys are going to exhale into because if you've ever felt like building your business required you to harden up or systemize every single thing, uh, create these like airtight boundaries or just like optimize yourself into oblivion, you're not crazy for not wanting to do that. Right. And so this is just the advice you've sort of been swimming in. And maybe it's not the right advice for you and your business. But what if the thing that actually grows your business isn't all of you know becoming more constricted like that or chasing trends, but it's actually deeper connection. So today my guest is Laura Kendrick, and she's a copy co-conspirator and human-centered marketing strategist who helps founders make their marketing feel like an actual human experience again. And she's also the host of the Holistic Marketing Summit, where she explores what happens with strategy, voice, and visibility when they're approached with like real thoughtfulness relationship and what she calls radical hospitality. So we're gonna talk about that today. We're gonna talk a lot about hospitality. We're gonna talk about how to fold that genuinely into your business and what happens when boundaries start to feel like isolation as well. And why algorithm-proof marketing might have less to do with trends and more to do with trust. Uh, also a little bit of how to use AI without sounding like a robot or selling your soul. Laura is super fun to chat with, and we have a really great genuine conversation. Like it's basically I felt like I was just having dinner with her. We have a lot in common, and I know you're gonna get a lot out of it. So let's jump in. Hey, Laura, thanks for being here with us today to talk about all things humanity and copy and radical hospitality, because I love the way that you frame all of this in the work that you do. And it really does make you stand out. So, as you know, I work with a lot of creatives, and that's one of the things that we're always talking about is like, how do we kind of stand out, especially in this world where everything seems to be like AI driven now? Um, so I want to just kind of start at the beginning and ask you, like on a personal level, when did you first realize that that typical optimize everything advice that we're always told was like draining the humanity out of your business? Like, was there a breaking point for you? What kind of did that for you?

SPEAKER_00 3:08

Um, I mean, short answer is like yes, many breaking points. And but also to start, thank you for having me. I'm really happy to be here. But it yeah, I it just I think we all have so many breaking points when especially when we are like I love that you have this with a dash of woo. I have one of my many backgrounds is as a yoga teacher. So, like, you know, spent years tapping into the feelings, the body, all that stuff. And I also spent many years in this business space being told to do things that didn't always feel aligned. It felt like pushing myself in a direction that or putting myself in a box, or I don't know, just uncomfortable and not in the like entrepreneurial like we live in discomfort. Like, yeah, of course, but in a way that is pushing a boundary that didn't feel good. And then being told it was like a mindset issue or you know, something else that, well, if you just work on that, it'll be better. And it's like, but then it all kind of coalesced. It's been, I mean, it's honestly it's been coalescing since birth in reality, but it all really coalesced in the last year and came to this point where I was really starting to kind of put all of my past together and also realize that I don't have to change to fit the business. The business has to change to fit me and the kind of person that I am, and many of us are, because what in our space they they refer to us as overgivers. And like we overgivers have to build firmer boundaries. And though I, yes, you need boundaries. You can't be up at three in the morning every day, you know, answering phone calls. That doesn't, it doesn't feel good. But there also is a point of like, I don't want to have to pull back my genuine give a damn. My want to see people succeed and my want to actually give to the people I care about and make sure that they feel held and seen and not just, oh, well, I'm here, you know, like not just another transaction for me that they're actually in this space and they belong here. And that all kind of clicked together and it's been a really fun ride since then.

Trust Recession Or Buyer Awareness

SPEAKER_01 5:24

Yeah, no, I totally that makes sense. And yeah, you're right. I feel like we all sort of had the have those breaking points, and probably a few of them, especially in the online space. It's so it's so so much right now, too. I feel like I mean, I've been in this world for a long time. And right now, I mean, you know, we've heard that whole what is it called, the the the trust recession. Yes, the trust recession.

SPEAKER_00 5:52

I don't necessarily believe that.

SPEAKER_01 5:53

Yeah, I I know. I feel like I wanted to get your take on that because I just feel like there's just a lot of information. So yeah, I can see how that would lead into. But tell me, yeah, give me your perspective on that.

SPEAKER_00 6:04

I see it and I understand what people like why they're labeling it that it's kind of like the thing of um, you know, business and and life and people calling it balance. And like I understand what they're going after, but like that's just not the right word. You know, it just doesn't really put it into place. And I think trust recession is the same because yes, there are people are wary for sure, but they're wary for other reasons. And they're wary for because they've become so sorry, the words are like evading me right now. They have become so adept and like they are so aware of all the slimy tactics and and the not slimy ones too. Like they understand the buyer psychology as well. So, though, yes, like it's really fun to think about and kind of move through it, but they also can see, like, actually, a really fun example that I actually did to somebody and was so fun. I ended up on a sales call, I some roundabout way with a very bro marketing person, right? And he's doing all the things, and I can like, I'm like, okay, I see what you're doing. You're doing all the like tactics.

SPEAKER_01 7:12

He's got the script, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 7:13

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And then he gets to the point where he drops the price and he sits in silence. And like, I I know what you're doing there. And so I just sat in silence with him and made it. I would not give him, like, I made him talk first. I was like, no, I see what you're doing, and I'm not gonna like, I'm not gonna play your game. Yeah. And that is, I mean, that was a bold, fun move for me, but also in very small ways, we're all doing that. And many of our buyers are doing that too, where we can see what's happening here. Like we understand the layout of a sales page. We understand talking about benefits and like we understand how people are playing the game on Instagram and LinkedIn and like we get it. So I think the trust recession is just people are looking at that, but they're trying to figure out are you real? Am I actually going to get this? Like what you're promising me, or are you just really good at marketing, really good at sales calls? So they're trying to discern the kind of like wah wah wah of marketing from the reality of what's behind it. Because we've all seen and experienced, especially in the last few years, like so many of us have invested in ourselves and our companies and all the things since COVID that we've all been burned. Oh, yeah. We've all been on the other end of this stuff where it's like, oh yeah, this seems great. And then you get in, you're like, whoa, okay, I am like all alone in this very expensive container and I'm not getting anything that I was promised. And so, with that, that's what people are walking in with. So I don't necessarily believe that it's trust that's the issue. It's that they're just trying to figure out what's right for them. And the traditional tactics and marketing don't allow for that space.

SPEAKER_01 9:02

Yeah. No, I would agree.

SPEAKER_00 9:04

And they they try and force you, like the guy sitting in silence, like, oh, I'm gonna make this awkward until she talks. And it's like, no, no, they're not.

Hospitality Without Losing Boundaries

SPEAKER_01 9:13

You're so right. And I think that it has such a great conversation. People are just so much more savvy, really. So it comes, right? Like they've been around the block, like you said. It's like, and I've seen this in my own containers, on my own calls, you know, and I've I've I've never really subscribed to any of that anyway, but it's so interesting now to hear it sort of reflected back. Like I've had multiple women, because that's mainly who I work with, come into these calls, like, right, by the time, first of all, by the time they come to a call with me, they they know what this is. Like they've already, they're ready. They're basically just ready. They're like, I just want to talk to you. Um, you know what I mean? And so I think that A, like I'm really a big proponent as you are, of like having your copy and all of your materials do these that heavy lifting for you and create that level of like connection and trust because that's ultimately what you want, right? But at the same time, they're also telling me things like, yeah, well, like you, you know, like that was easy. You didn't, you didn't give me the script. Like they were expecting the script. Right. And it's so interesting to see how it's like sort of playing out. Also, a lot of people are telling me, just in general, I've been burnt in coaching. Like that's one of the first things that they'll tell me. So um I feel like this is just gonna get even more and more like they're gonna get more and more savvy. So it's not necessarily that people aren't buying or you know, want what you have. It really becomes like this this level of um, yeah, like you said, it's not necessarily trust, but how are you really doubling down on what makes you you, like the most you that you can possibly be? And you talk a lot about this radical hospitality. So what does that really look like in real terms? Like in not just on the copy, but like in the DMs or like that kind of stuff.

SPEAKER_00 11:06

Right. It's it's so multifaceted and it looks different. And I think that's the at the end of the day, the like real foundational like nugget here is that for me is that nothing can be like copy and pasted onto somebody else's business. Like you really, you really can't templatize things. Like, yes, you can take a structure and an idea and like mold it into your own, but you can't, I can't just take an email or even like I could not just take this podcast and be like, it's mine. Everybody would be like different vibe. This is different, she's a different person. It just you can't do it, right? So that's at the at the threat of this. So it's gonna look different for everybody, but a huge piece of it has to do with well, really being an effing human being, like and realizing that the person at the other end is also a human being. So instead of forcing them or trying to force them or trying to constantly tell them what's best for them, thinking about the fact that we all have our own autonomy, we all know better for us than like an outsider. Like we have far more information about our own individual selves than anyone else does. So there is a little bit of hubris for us to walk in there and be like, well, Renee, let me tell you what you need right now. So if you can step back from kind of that world and step into listening and hearing what they need, then the that's where the magic comes from. And sometimes it's individual, but sometimes it is at scale. And there are bits and pieces of it. Like the hard part is thinking about how do I take this to scale? And one thing is like, okay, yes, somebody follows you on Instagram. A really great practice to connect with them is to send them a DM. Do you have to be perfect at it? No. Should it be something that comes from like a machine or a computer? Ideally not. If that if you can manage it. And now, of course, if they're flooding in, okay, then I mean, that's an amazing problem to have. Rock on. But also, if you have to automate those, then think about what it would be like to receive this automation and then write the automation in those terms. And it could be as simple as acknowledging this is an automation. Yeah. And saying, like, you are speaking to my AI buy. Yep. If you say this, you'll go here. If you say this, you'll go here. If you say human being, I'll show up. You know, like it's the those bits and pieces and acknowledging the fact I only have so much capacity. People get that. And a piece of this actually comes from in I'm, I mean, through college and grad school and all the things, I worked in restaurants, like so many people do. Same. And was like, I waited tables, I attended bar, even managed the restaurants. So like it, I walked the whole gamut of the front of the house things. And I remember training servers and being like, you're in the weeds. Yeah, it's chaos. If you don't acknowledge that to your table, they're just gonna get pissed off because they're waiting and waiting and waiting, and they think you're a net. But if you go up to your table and say, Hey, look at the shit show I'm in, they will see it and they will suddenly be like, Oh, okay, yeah, we can wait a minute. We see this. I got you. Like they feel like they're in it with you. They feel acknowledged and seen. They're not being ignored, and they know that for sure. And that comes with those like bits and pieces where you can automate, but do it in this thing where you're actually pulling them into the truth, not the fake, like, you're talking to a human. And if you send this word again, you're gonna talk to the same human who speaks in the exact same words every single time. It's like, yeah, that's a bot, man.

Dinner Party Marketing That Sounds Like You

SPEAKER_01 14:49

Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. No, I'm so glad. Well, two things we could talk about restaurant industry all day, every day, because I too did all of those things for many, many, many years. And I feel like it trained me so well, like just for life in general, but especially for being a business owner and to working in the way that I do. And so I yeah, like that was the that was number one. It's like just communicate with people, just let them know, right? Like, I mean, I remember I would tell somebody, I had to tell like at least a couple of tables over the years, like, hey, you know, not only am I in the weeds, but like I also am not cooking your food. Like, just so you know, right? Like, because people would get so angry. I'm like, oh my god, yeah. Just so you know, like I don't cook the food as well. Like, I'm also getting yelled at by the kitchen. So this is a fun thing for both of us, and we're in this together. Like, you know how it is. You go back there, I had a chef literally throw food at me one time. Lovely get out of my damn kitchen. I was like, okay, awesome. So, you know, like you have to communicate with people just in general, but these this this bot question, like that's a thing that I hear a lot of people talk about. And so, like, one of the things I definitely grapple with this myself, right? So, for a long time, that is what I did. I would manually reach out to people, right? When they when they would follow me. But recently, it is a good problem to have in the last like couple years. I mean, I have a reel like going super viral right now, still after like a month. And so, like, I'm getting a lot of followers from this, which is really awesome. And they're they're my people, and I love that there's no way I can keep up with this. And so I do use many chat, but it sounds right at the top. Like, it's like, hey, this is Renee 2.0. Like I'm not, this is not really me, but also like I just want to say hi, you know, let you know that I'm here. And, you know, if you want to, you know, if you want to chat about marketing and and photography and cat memes, like let me know, right? Like, just let people know, like kind of where you're at. And I feel like that's a really good piece of advice just in general. Um, I feel like we've been sold this sort of like you know, you have to be like the face. I still have a lot of women coming into my coaching, having a very hard time with the professional versus not professional for lack of a better word, because it still is professional. I tell them, like, you gotta be you, right? Like, yeah, like I know you want to say this thing. Like, let's say you're recording a video and you want it to come across this way, but like don't read it off the script. Like, you really have to be you. Like you have to infuse this with some personality. So, what if somebody's listening and they're struggling with that, because I know a lot of people do. Um what is something that they can do that you feel would make their marketing 10% more like a dinner party and less like a billboard?

SPEAKER_00 17:37

Oh my gosh, yes. And because that's the thing though, now too. There's there's kind of this the two extremes. There are, of course, the the individuals who are famous for just being famous and they share way too much information. And like, yes, we all consume it like you know, the soap operas our mothers did. And you know, it's that like, oh my god, this is amazing. But also, I don't want to be that. I don't need anybody like videotaping me giving birth or, you know, some of the stuff they do. It's like, I'm good. Uh, but there's also the other side of it that is super corporate. And like, I honestly have this like cringe factor when we drive down the road and you actually see the billboards on the side of the road that are like the attorney's offices or the dentist's office, and it's like, oh, that's like so not real. And we have we have broken through that. Like we have broken through that. Um, what's the word? It's like a facade. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 18:34

Kind of.

SPEAKER_00 18:34

Yes. And it was one that like we lived in society, and it still does to some extent, where you have to kind of play that role or have that facade, which is, I get it, but also like if you think about it, those people who do that, you never really know what's going on. And even though they might look beautiful and have a fabulous life, you're always kind of like, nothing's that perfect. And you can see that you're like, what's really happening behind closed doors? You know, like what kind of mess do you really have? What kind of anxieties, stress? And people aren't actually connecting with you. So if you have a business that's just you or small team or you're the face of the business, do you want to be the person who's super distant that people don't actually connect with, or do you want the business that actually connects? And and that's a real question, not a judgmental one, because there isn't a real answer there. It really does depend on who you are, what you're doing. Largely for this audience, the answer is going to be no, yes, I do want to connect. I do want to forge those relationships. Then you have to be human. And you have to, does that mean that you need to videotape the birth and like share your weight? And like, you know, like this is me on a Saturday doing nothing, binging this. No, you absolutely do not need to share those things. But you do have to be human. And that can be as simple as instead of having AI type your caption for you, and even if you use AI, because AI is a tool. So, like, I'm not against AI, but even if AI types the caption for you, maybe like talking in it, like reading it in your own, like, how would you say that to your best friend? If you're an audio person, just record it, do a voice note and see what comes up and like think about those words using those words. That will make you 10% more human to the people. The other side of it is be honest. Like, you don't have to, you don't have to shine and gloss over everything. Like, for instance, last week, I finally started a YouTube channel that I've been thinking about for a long time. And I embedded the first video in the top of the blog, and I was like, yes, finally getting it all together instead of winging it like I so often am, I scheduled the email out, sharing the blog like two days in advance, but the blog wasn't live yet. So guess what? Missed a character and sent out a dead link. And of course, like a good problem to have a lot of people hit reply and said, um, the link's broken. And I was like, Well, first of all, this is an amazing problem to have. But the follow-up email, instead of being one that, like, you know, that's a sales tactic sometimes where people are like, I fixed the broken link. I'm like, you just wanted people to know. Yes, I actually put in, like, oh, look at me, like getting it together. And like, this is what you get for not writing, you know, just honestly putting that through and just saying, I miss this character and here I am. But here, if you want to read it. And it wasn't reiterating the whole blog, it was simply, yep, I messed up. Here it is. If you feel so inclined to read it, away you go. And that was it. Like just taking ownership of we're all human, we all make mistakes. That also is a massive connection point between you and your people because they are also human.

SPEAKER_01 21:51

Yeah, no, for sure. I really love this topic just in general because I I've always felt that way too. Like there's the extremes, like you just said, right? Like I'm not, I've never been one to be like, oh yeah, let me just tell you everything about my life and like open up the entire all the doors to the house. No, that's not who I am. I'm an introvert at heart. Like I'm never gonna feel that comfortable sharing every piece of my life. My husband would. He's an extrovert and he's an actor. So like if someone came to us and be like, hey, we want to do a reality show for you guys, he'd be like, Let's go. I'm like, no, we're not doing that, you know? So this is a very personal decision, truly. And I feel like most of the women that I work with are are definitely on that side of the fence. We're like, no, I don't really want to do that. But like you said, there's a difference between showing your humanity and connecting with people and just sharing for the sake of views and clicks and all that stuff. And you know, everybody has their own, they have to have, you know, that own decision on on their end first. But at the end of the day, people just want to connect. Like it is a human condition, right? Like it's built into us. We we want to connect with somebody. Literally, we're communal, we're literally. Yes. And it's like a proven scientific fact. Like you live longer if you literally connect with people like that's not a good thing.

SPEAKER_00 23:15

Babies will die. Babies will die if they're not held. Yes, exactly.

The Best Audit Is Real Conversations

SPEAKER_01 23:19

And if you're a yoga background, and I also was a massage therapist, like it's it's a thing. It's real. And so it's really just about letting people know a little bit more about you, like who that person is behind the facade, behind the billboard, behind the computer, whatever it is, like, hey, yeah, like I I mess that I mess up too, I feel like this too. And and finding your people, that's how you resonate. Like that's how you find the right people. Because again, like you're not trying to like sell to every single person on earth. That would literally be impossible. So at the end of the day, if somebody's feeling sort of disconnected from their marketing, what's like the first place that you would have people start to look like to audit, basically, right? If they feel sort of disconnected, they're not really sure if something's hitting or if they feel like what they're putting out isn't bringing in the right people where they that's the thing.

SPEAKER_00 24:15

That is a real thing. Honestly, in that instance, it my genuine advice is to go and talk to the right people, whether their clients have been clients or not, even if, you know, I this and I've done this, I've done my own voice of customer research where it has been with somebody who I've never worked with, but they kind of embody the person I want to work with. And so I simply ask them, they're friends, they're people I know who I say, like, ooh, can I just ask you some questions? And the trick there is you don't coach them, you don't fix them, you just ask questions and listen and hear what you hear. And they will give you so much gold of like what they actually need to hear, like what is kind of hitting their head and heart right now. And you can simply lean into that. But at the end of the day, it's thinking about your ideal person and if you, especially if you know them well, what do they really need? And that, like, even just sitting back and thinking about that, it's kind of like going back to the restaurant conversation. The people who came into the table when the restaurant is super busy and you are in the weeds and you don't even have time to go and get their first drink. What do they need? They simply need to hear, I see you. I know you're here. I am not ignoring you, I promise. And like they're good for a good few minutes. You just bought yourself a lot of time and they feel really held and fabulous and wonderful. And that's the thing is thinking about that. What do they need? Even that thought process folds into like that's at the core of all of this. It folds into everything. Like, one of the things that actually drives me a little bit nuts, just a little bit, not a lot. When I mention this idea to a lot of people who've been in this world for a while, the first thing they always bring up is like, oh, I love surprise and delight. I need to fold more of that into my business. And my response internally is always like, like, I'm just pulling back a little bit because surprise and delight is a small little element of genuine, thoughtful, relentless, beautiful hospitality. It is not the whole game. And our world has turned that into the whole game. Like, if I send you this gift box with a bunch of stuff with my logo on it, yay, you're gonna be so grateful. You're held, you're here. And it's like, well, will they? Like, is that did you actually stop and think about what do these people or this person need right now to actually feel seen? And actually, one of the better examples I have of this is I was in a program who they sent a bunch of gifts. And most of them, like one was a plant, which I'm a plant person. So I was like, yes, but I also thought about how many people have told me to have a brown thumb. And I'm like, yeah, like some people probably received this plant and thought, anxiety, stress, like, oh God, what am I gonna do with this? Oh, like, you know, and so that's not the emotion you want them to be feeling. But interestingly, I was in the middle of the program and I happened to be on a call with uh a little coaching call in the middle of the week, and I was having a rough week. And the next day, a big honkin bag of coffee beans showed up on my doorstep. And at the time I actually wasn't drinking coffee, my partner was, who's fine. But it was like, it was still the thing of that was really thoughtful. Like you heard, you listened. You heard, you heard that I had this incredibly stressful, very long week and I was struggling to get things done. And no, you can't show up from you know, a thousand miles away and do the work for me. And no, you can't, you know, buy me a cleaning person to come clean my house and do my laundry and take something off my plate. But what you can do is, you know, log into Amazon and send$15 bag of coffee to somebody that is not a huge thing, but it really says, I see you and I'm here to support you as much as I possibly can. And that was like, you know, that was the like, oh, thank you moment, even though I I wasn't the one who was gonna drink the coffee. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 28:18

Yeah. No, those little things matter so much. And it that because, like you said, it means somebody was listening to you. And that's really the piece that I think a lot of just online business owners, it's just in general, uh, we we sort of like forget that sometimes because sometimes it can feel like you're talking to a void, right? Even well, for sure. Yeah, and especially if you don't like I do a lot of one-on-one work, so like I'm constantly reminded of that because that is my world. And that's one of the reasons why I still do love one-on-one work because I love that piece of it. Like I'll for various reasons, and I it's human design stuff too. But like I I love being able to do things like that, like, oh yeah, you know, like I'm gonna just send you this audible book because of our conversation the other day. And you know, all of these little pieces add up. But I feel like a lot of people forget about that piece of listening because maybe they don't have the opportunity to listen as much. So if if that's you and you you're not doing like containers and things like that, how can you, right? Like that's kind of a good question to ask. How can you, like you just said, how can you ask them? How can you talk to your people? Where are they? And how can you get in front of them? Such a good question. Source that information.

SPEAKER_00 29:31

Yeah, right. There's so many places. I mean, if you think about it, if you have an email list, there's people on your email list, and though that can very much feel like shouting into the void, you can ask them questions. And yes, here's the thing if you have not asked a lot of questions, if you haven't asked them to reply, if you haven't asked them to click, they're not used to it. I don't like the word trained. That's not like that, doesn't feel good to me. But they might not be used to the fact that there are these asks involved. And they might also, like, you know, my undergrad's coming out. Group psychology, like group think comes in of like, well, somebody else is answering this, so I don't have to. Well, that's like it takes time. But if you ask these questions, if you finish the email with like, seriously, can you tell me how that landed? I'm just curious. Like, this is a thought process, but I want to know if this is actually like landing in your heart. Hit reply and say this. And wait until like, keep asking, keep asking. They will hit reply. The other thing is doing those same calls to action in your social media posts, asking people these questions and in the DMs and not with a here's the thing: people can feel energetics. So if they think you're asking because or they can feel that you're asking because you're like meandering your way to the sale, yeah, blurk, they're not gonna respond to that. That's just gonna be like, no thanks. Like Renee's just after my money again. I'm not gonna fall for that. But if you are opening up this genuine dialogue, if you're actually talking to these people and you are asking them, and then you know, if they answer it, you just go into a conversation, not looking for anything, but thinking about them as like the person next to you at the bar or at the coffee bar or the person across from you having tea, and you're actually interested in them. The thing is, your brand is going to fill quickly with the right people and in the right way that makes you feel good, and you will be so in touch with them that you'll understand these things and you'll they'll respond when you ask questions and you'll know what to lean into. And at the end of the day, sometimes that like overgive that bag of coffee, if you will, for the people who aren't quite in your world because no, you're not gonna send a bag of coffee to everyone in your audience. Like that's a good way to run yourself out of business. Um, but what you can do is think about oh, I'm hearing this problem coming up a lot lately. Well, maybe this podcast, tried and true with a dash of woo, might actually help them. So, you know what? I'm gonna suggest this with no like nothing on the table other than, you know, I know this person, Renee, who has this great podcast, and this just keeps coming up and she addresses it so well. And here's a couple of episodes that I think might land, but you know, I'm just hearing it. And it's just sending that out there of I'm thinking of you, I'm not fishing for anything. You guys are kind of saying some stuff, I'm seeing stuff on your social media posts, I'm hearing replies in the emails, and I feel like this might be a really good resource. So here you go. And that is a really lovely, free way to just say I'm listening and here's the thing. And also I have I really, yes, this is a business, but I care about you. It's not always agenda based.

High Touch Marketing For Creatives

Messaging Voice And Brand Voice Clarity

SPEAKER_01 32:46

Exactly. Yeah. No, that's a good point because it doesn't have to cost you any money, right? Like a handwritten note at the end of the day is is free, you know. Well, that's stamp, you know, but like you get what I'm saying. Yeah. And, you know, I hear that a lot because I do work with a lot with photographers because I have been with one for so long. And so I still still do work with a lot of photographers. And that's one of the things that I hear, you know, because most of what we're doing, because I teach them how to run like more of a boutique business where it's more high touch, less clients, higher price, but relationship-based. This is all about that. And like literally getting physically in front of them as well as online in the marketing. And that's kind of a big piece of it too, is like, well, first of all, a lot of them have issues or just they feel really disconnected from the marketing piece, right? Because creatives, just in general, but I I see a lot of photographers fall into this, where you fall you're doing this because you love it, you're good at it. Somebody told you, oh, you have a good eye, whatever. And then you get into it and you realize if I don't market my business, I'm not going to have a business. And so you have to make this identity shift a little bit from I'm a creative who loves to play and create things and have fun and I'm good at it. And I love working with these clients too. I love that human connection. Okay, well, how do I bridge that gap between like still staying like that and becoming this business that needs to bring money in? And so, like those two identities, I feel like are very much at odds with a lot of creatives, and especially when it comes to their marketing, because a lot of the things that we were talking about, which is it doesn't feel like, you know, I'm I I I feel fake or I don't know what to say. So what I tell people first, like when I walk them through, and I'd love to hear your your take on this, um, and how you sort of like pivot into that because I I feel like we can't really even start that process until we start at the core of like who you are, your purpose, and why you're even doing this. Like, are you connected to it? Like, are you connected to like why you are the way you are? Like, we do a lot of like kind of like deeper work there because I have a degree in psychology and I kind of feel like we all kind of have to start there, but also who that person is. Like, who is that client? Um, and so once you kind of like get that foundation of those two things, it does tend to get a little bit easier for most of the creatives that I work with because then we can create a plan based on those things. And for you, I'd love to hear how how you sort of like even start that process with people. Like, you know what I mean? Like, is it something similar or is it, yeah, frame that for me.

SPEAKER_00 35:32

I, it's so funny you're bringing this up. I love that you're bringing this up. Cause so I actually have it, I have discovered that there are three copywriting tools, if you will, that when put into place and when fleshed out and done really well, it like all of those things that you're talking about suddenly, like I I kid you not, they magically like, oh, it's all there. Like, wow, like I can, it becomes this north star of clarity. It is unbelievable. I I've watched it happen over and over again. I've watched it happen to myself, where it's you don't even question, like, should I be on this podcast? Should I, like, what should my prices be? Should I show up at this event? Like, you just know because you are so clear on who you are, who the business is, and who the ideal people are and what they need. And those three things are your messaging. And outside of like, I know, in look, there is no business program on earth that's worth a dime if it doesn't have a little bit of messaging work at least in. And most of them give some kind of like workbook or something to start working it through. But as like from what I do, I gotta get down deep into that. So, like, we dive. I mean, most of those are like, you know, waiting in the kiddie pool of like starting to think about this. And I'm like, you know, in the Marianas trench with my like my snorkel, like, let's get in here, uh, and getting into all that stuff. But once you get down to that level of beyond just the persona, but also what's motivating them and like what's the buyer psychology of these people, where are they on their awareness journey, all of these factors, and you get so clear on what they need to know in order to be ready to buy and how to know if they are the right people or not, then layering in that like properly well done voice of customer where people aren't coaching them, where you're listening and like really getting their words and their thoughts in their own vernacular. Yeah, not only does that give you content pillars for eons, but it also connects the dots between what you think and it confirms what's real and it bridges that gap. And then the final piece that really like layers it all together and makes that those fine lines between you and the business very clear is actually establishing and documenting properly the brand voice. Because that is where, especially for those of us who are the faces of our business, who have been told that like that's how you have to market these days. And no, it's not how you have to, it's how many of us choose to, but it's not how you have to. And it becomes so much easier to do all these things and share kind of personally in quotes, if you will, without oversharing. If you have these boundaries in place and having a really clearly defined brand voice establishes those boundaries in a way that I've never seen anything else do it. It's really fascinating the work that kind of flushes out there.

SPEAKER_01 38:31

Yes, absolutely. Yeah, no, I agree 100% across the board. And I feel like it just, like you said, it just makes things so much more seamless. Um, because the thing I hear a lot from people is like, I don't know what to say. Well, you do if you do this foundational work, right? Yes. Um, and I just feel like a lot of people just don't know where to start with that. So people like you, people like me, like we, you know what I mean? Like you that's that's really where it comes down to is like finding someone who you can vibe with, who you can learn from, because most of us, especially creatives, do kind of feel like, you know, it's of course it's not gonna come second nature to you, right? Like you might be really good at this, you know, this this one photography genre, but like for me, as a photographer, just in general, like I love, you know, working with headshots and branding and high school seniors, but like, do not ask me to photograph your baby ever, right? Like, I'm not gonna do it. And so it's the same kind of thing. Like, you you need to source with people who are professionals at what they do.

SPEAKER_00 39:34

That would make such amazing content of like baby picture fails that you did of like this is why, because this baby's like and like some people would love that. And it's I mean, I actually posted a picture on my personal Instagram account years ago now, because this this baby is now six, but we decided to do the like, you know, every month take a picture of her. And I totally ripped the idea off of somebody else's social media, but it was one where I was like holding her up above my head against a white wall, and my partner, he was taking the picture, so it was just like her floating up there. But then it was really funny because like on month six, and we don't put our kids on social media, yeah, but on month six, he took a series of pictures, but she was getting so heavy, like my arms came down. So he literally took a picture of the white wall. And so I posted that on social media. It was like six months, we're so proud, disappearing baby. But it's amazing. Like you can play into those things and and just like like have fun with the have a laugh at the things that actually make you laugh of the like you know, face palm moment where you're like, oh my God, I can't believe that just happened. Or going back to like you said, they are told that they're they have a really good eye and they love it for a reason. Share what that reason is, and it might not be actually like the pictures at the end, it might actually be the laugh that you're having with somebody, or like getting to see all these different places in one day, or even the editing process, or having a cup of tea with somebody. Yeah. Those kinds of things are the things that humanize you. And when somebody goes, Oh, I love to laugh too. Oh, maybe this is my person. You know, like they're gonna, they're gonna meander their way in.

SPEAKER_01 41:13

100%. It's so funny too, because like not ever have I ever, ever, ever, ever once in all the 20 years of being a photographer, have I ever advertised being a newborn photographer. But you know, I still get inquiries about that. And I'm like, guys, like it, but but that's also that's also shows you though, and this is what I kind of like talk to my clients about too, my coaching clients, is that they connected with something, they connected with the work, they connected with something, right? Like, so they might not be my people for that, but hey, hit me up when that kid gets to be a teenager.

SPEAKER_00 41:47

Like, oh my gosh, do you have any like horrid pictures of your own kids? Like, we dressed my kid up when he my oldest one, when he was, I think, two for Halloween. I dressed him up as Chucky. Oh yeah. So I like if I were you, I would be like, this is what you get.

Go Deeper Than Generic Connection

SPEAKER_01 42:03

Hilarious. No, seriously. It's like, look, I am no angettis and I don't want to be. Um, but that is like, and I tell lots of photographers, I'm like, own it. Like, oh, own it and be have fun with it, right? Like you said, because that's the kind of stuff that's going to get people like to because you know, when people are scrolling your web, you know, your website and socials, you're kind of like in a hypnotic state, right? You want to sort of be like, oh, that's actually a little pop of personality there. Like, this person's a human being. That's a good thing, right? But it's just, it's just so funny to me that I still get these inquiries. I'm like, what in what world do you think that I would ever want to do that? But also to go back to this other point really quick, most of the photographers that I work with who come in who are high school senior photographers like me, all of us, all of us are drawn to this because there was something in our teen years that we lacked, that we missed, that we didn't feel seen for some reason, right? And so uh a very common thread is that you'll hit a high school senior photography site and it has something about how you know just helping you feel seen. I'm like, okay, that is like now become just a very generic thing. Now you got to go deeper than that, right? And so, like, yeah, why did you not? Like, there's something else underneath that layer. So that's just a little hint to you guys out there. If you're listening, it's good that you're starting there, but that's not the end. And I know you go deep with your people too.

SPEAKER_00 43:25

It's interesting too that you say that because I feel like so often on people's websites who are they kind of wrote it themselves and they haven't been through a ton of copy training. Yeah, so often they will start with what they think is supposed to be on there, which is all about them. Oh like hi, I'm Laura, I'm a copywriter. This is myself. And at the end of the day, in reality, it should actually all be about the person reading it. And like, yes, you have to tell them who you are. And if you honestly think of your copy as in some ways, especially, and this is like really going to the kind of top of funnel stuff. So your social media, your website to some extent, like those kinds of pieces, you are talking to the person, it's almost like you're on this like blind date. You've never met them before. So you have to, like, if you think about going on a date with somebody, a first date, if you sit there and they sit down at the table and go, Hi, I'm Laura, I'm from Syracuse. I did this, you're gonna just, I mean, you're gonna start to slowly pull back and pull back and pull back from the table until the date's over and you're like looking at your watch, going, Good Lord, we're never doing this again. And that's what so many people do on their website. They just talk about themselves. And so the person who's reading the website is like, Bravo for you, moving on. There's no reason for them to be there. So if they don't feel seen, that is like that should be just an automatic. Like you shouldn't have to say that anywhere. It's just a like, yes, people who are in your world should feel seen and like they belong there. But honestly, telling a little story without getting like too traumatizy is as to what that thing was for you, yeah, actually will draw a through line for the people that are like, oh, I get it. Yeah.

Holistic Marketing Summit And Laura Links

SPEAKER_01 45:06

Because I mean, again, like, and there's all these different types of personalities of these clients, right? It's like, yeah, if you met one teenager, you met one teenager, right? Like, so like I have an older son with autism, and I mean, he's 27 now. But because of that, I I mean, I've been working with neurodiverse kids like my whole life. Yeah. And you know, I I have blogs about it, I've talked about it. I don't put it out there a ton, but there's information out there. Somebody find it, right? And I recently had a client last year who reached out, it was the mom, and she was really sort of like she really wanted to do this for her daughter, but she's like, I know this is gonna be tough for her because she's on the spectrum, but I'm I think that she'll do it. I was like, I I'm gonna stop you right there. Like, I got you. You know what I mean? And so once I sort of like sent her, I sent her the blog and I sent her some information, she was like, Oh my god, like you just totally put me at ease. Yeah, so it it is like like you said, share about what you know, what you feel good about doing, and and that will create that resonance and that connection with people. So before we wrap up though, I want to because I we could talk about marketing all day here. It's like such it's like my second love language. Like I love truly. Um, it's it's so fascinating to me because of the psychological aspects of it too. Like I love it. But you host something called the Holistic Marketing Summit, and you've got one, I think, coming up soon-ish in March, I think. And I wanted to or Wednesday.

SPEAKER_00 46:31

The next one will be in May, actually.

SPEAKER_01 46:33

Okay, okay. Sorry, had that wrong, but it is gonna be coming up soon. And I wanted to just at least have you talk just a minute about that so people can put that on their radar.

SPEAKER_00 46:42

Oh, yeah. Um, so every time I do this, which it's typically twice a year, this is the first one this year, it has a theme to it. And this is the fun part. Like the I've done launches, I've done websites. This one's gonna be on this idea of holistic marketing. And it's really fun because we go outside of holistic marketing, it's a little bit like it, we're playing in a sphere that most people don't think about. But kind of going back to the things that people do talk about in marketing and copy, like websites. When we talked about websites, it was not only how does a website work. And I mean, we were going deeper than that. And it was also how do these things kind of tie together? Like we had an EFT tapping person talking about like regulating your nervous system because it's a visibility move. We were talking about how it connects with lead magnets and also other visibility things. We talked about how, you know, podcasts play into this and how can you really make that work for your business? So we go beyond just the individual topic because at the end of the day, the part of this that is really cool, but also a little bit overwhelming is that it is all connected.

SPEAKER_02 47:47

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 47:48

So you can't just like take one piece out in isolation, and that's where it gets overwhelming, I feel like, when you're like to re-do a funnel, and you're like, oh my gosh, but this funnel needs to connect to here, to here, to here, to here, to here. And it it just becomes overwhelming. But at the end of the day, it is all connected, which in some ways is a lovely grace because if the funnel doesn't work, there's other things. So it's fine. But we pull in from like the outer edges, and this is that like yoga teacher, ex-high school teacher. Like, I so much different experience in my life that I'm like, it really like it comes from all these places that not enough people talk about. So on this one, we are going to be talking about this idea of putting hospitality into the business in so many different ways, into the marketing, into the actual business itself in a thoughtful way and not just a you know, surprise and delight, or you have to fly somebody halfway around the world first class for them to feel hospitality in their bones.

SPEAKER_01 48:44

Right. No, yeah, I love that. That's why I wanted to mention it because again, like you and I have so much in common with that because of our backgrounds. I feel like, you know, it is all connected. We tell people that all the time. Like, you know, a strategy won't work if you don't understand like what's keeping you from actually implementing it, right? Like, so what's that deeper thing? So I love that you do this a couple of times a year. So I will definitely put some information in the show notes about that. And then if people want to hook up with you, connect with you, where do you like to hang out? Where do you want to have them reach you?

SPEAKER_00 49:15

I am doing a better job at my own marketing this year. So I'm on all the places now, other than TikTok. I've never, I've never leaned in there, but uh in all the places at Cheeky Copy, you can find me. Um, and also the website is cheekycopy.co. So I'm also there as well. And I actually just put out into the world. I'm really excited about it. So if you grab it, you gotta let me know what you think about it. Uh, but a capsule private podcast that is all about starting this idea of hospitality in your marketing. So really starting to like open the doors and that we're layering in some case studies here too, of like how people are actually doing this, so that not to like wash, rinse, repeat into your own business, but to just kind of start like cracking those thoughts open of like, how could I apply this? So that's a really fun resource there too, if you want to like really dig into this topic a little bit more.

SPEAKER_01 50:06

Awesome. We'll put those links for everybody in the show notes so they can find it really easily. Thank you so much for being here, Laura. This was awesome chatting with you.

SPEAKER_00 50:13

Oh, thank you for having me.

Key Takeaways And Listener Challenge

SPEAKER_01 50:14

It was so fun. All right, let's talk about what you're gonna walk away with after this conversation I had with Laura, because I keep thinking about it and I keep thinking about in particular this hospitality piece of it and how it's not a fluffy thing. It's not just about, like she said, surprising and delighting, right? It's it's not about overgiving. It's really about that intentional care. And that is really powerful. So a few things I want you to take with you today is that first, marketing doesn't have to feel extractive. If it does, something is off. Okay, so when your marketing feels like hosting, like inviting somebody into your space that you've prepared with care, it really does change everything. Second, boundaries are important, but if your systems are so impenetrable that nobody can feel you as a human being anymore, that's not great, right? It creates disconnection. And third, AI is a tool and it can help you set the table, but it shouldn't replace your warmth, your voice, your perspective. You're the host, not the algorithm. And then lastly, and probably the biggest thing that I would like you to remember in today's episode is that when you build real relationships, your people will build the business with you. Okay, that word of mouth is really important. Referrals, that loyalty, that is stuff that is trendproof. So I'd love to know what landed for you in particular, as always. Where have you been overoptimizing, or where could you bring more hospitality back into your work? Let me know. And if you love this conversation, share it with a friend, tag somebody, tag me, let me know that you're sharing it. It's awesome. I love when you guys do that. It's super fun to see how it just affects people out in the wild. I'll put all of the links for Laura below as well because you gotta go and get to know her too. So until next time, keep showing up with intention and the right people are going to pay attention. Talk to you soon. Have a great rest of your week. Love ya. Bye.