Welcome to Tried & True with a Dash of Woo, where we blend rock solid tips with a little bit of magic. I'm your host Renee Bowen, a life and a business coach, professional photographer, diet coke lover, and mom of three grown kids. Here to walk you through all the ins and outs of identity-based marketing and how to run a business that feels like freedom. My guest today is Kieryn Wang and and she is an email marketer and the founder of Almost, a boutique email marketing agency that turns email lists into revenue generating powerhouses. So she's got over 14 years of experience in digital marketing and she specializes in building high converting automations, data-driven campaigns and retention strategies that drive measurable sales growth. Since launching Almost, she supported over 60 brands in the beauty and wellness space primarily through her campaigns and membership community, helping clients transform their email marketing into one of their most profitable and reliable sales channels. Her expertise has led to six and seven figure revenue growth for clients, and her insights have been featured in Bon Appetit, Bloomberg, and other top tier publications. And so today's title of the episode is what your Hinge dates can teach you about email marketing, holiday edition, because we definitely dive deep into a lot of ideas, not just for the year-round marketing. We go into a lot of what her best practices are, basically, to get you set up, just to get you started, to get you in this consistent workflow of emailing your list. We touch on why you probably are ghosting people, how to get through that. She has great ideas on welcome sequences. Like she outlines all of that for you guys. And then we also talk specifically about a holiday push, right? So how are you going to be selling during the holidays in your emails? Also, we talk about how your emails shouldn't be all salesy. So we go into a lot of different stuff in this episode, and she's very knowledgeable and super fun to chat with. So I know you guys are gonna get a lot out of this, and we're just gonna jump right in. All right, Kieryn, and I wanna just dive right in to this topic because like when you proposed that you wanted to kind of talk a little bit about like what your Hinge dates can teach you about email marketing, I was immediately intrigued and I leaned in and I was like, okay, so I want you to tell me, tell my audience, what the heck does dating have to do with email marketing? And what are most of us getting wrong in both departments? Yeah. I don't know if I can help you on the dating department. Not my area of expertise, not my zone of genius. I will leave that to the experts. Okay. But I do, obviously, as we all do, have a lot of experience with dating and some of the bad sides of dating, some of the great sides of dating. And so I really am trying to impart on more marketers, business owners, people who are trying to reach a customer, trying to reach someone who's going to pay them for either a product or a service. I want to try to impart that your email list is literally just your roster, if you will. It is filled with people that you are kind of quote unquote trying to date. Not necessarily, not actually date. I mean, you know, but we're trying to build a relationship with them, whether that's a friendship, whether that, you know, whatever you want to call it, but you are building a relationship with recording them, right? Like it's like, it's like you kind of want to like keep them on. Yeah. A little bit, right? Yeah. Yeah. And you do want to, you know, get to know them. You want them to get to know you. You're having, I like to think of, you know, your social media profile is kind of like your dating profile. And then when you get into email marketing, that is when you start to the welcome series is like the talking phase, right? It's, I'm going to tell you a little bit about myself. I'm going to ask you some questions. And we continue to maintain that relationship all the way throughout the year, all the way to the holidays, right? When the holidays come around, Are we ready to take this business, this brand, this product, this service back to our families and talk about it? Are we prepared to introduce it to our friends and show them why your life has changed from purchasing this product or this service, right? So with email, this is where you get to like really have the meat of nurturing the relationship. Getting to, again, I will say this a million times probably in this episode, start the two-way street, start the dialogue. I think a lot of the time with social, with email, whatever kind of marketing platform you're using, a lot of business owners think it's like, I'm broadcasting. But the thing is, is I'm actually, I'm telling you so that you can also tell me so that I can listen and then I can also deliver what it is that you want and you're looking for. So that's just kind of a little bit of a taste of why I don't wanna call myself like a dating coach for your customers, but like I kind of am. I'm kind of teaching you how to date them. I'm teaching you how to build their trust and build the loyalty between the two of you, right? Yeah, no, it makes so much sense. I kind of talked about this, I feel like years ago, so I'm a high school senior photographer, right? And so I was looking at all this data about how it takes like certain touch, like so many touch points now, right? And you've probably heard that now it's even more because this was like a few years ago and I was like, it's kind of like, we really have to like, uh, be courting our, our clients just in general, right? Like I wasn't thinking about email marketing, but in general, because if you think about it, you really need to have, like you said, that relationship and warm them up and because your clients are going to vet you, right? Like just like they do, like if you were on a dating site and you get somebody who expressed interest in you, you're going to check them out. You're going to go down the rabbit hole. You're going to like dig into like, who is this person? Right? So I was coming at it from the point of view of like, well, what are they going to find out about you? Like, do you have anything like out there? You know, because if you're like, if you don't have anything for them to like dig into, then that's that first layer of trust that you've kind of blown it already. But I love how we're talking now more about like email specific, because this is a really, really big pain point that I see in, I mean, probably 95, if not more percent of my own coaching clients who are mostly, you know, creatives and photographers, they have this thing that they feel like email marketing is like kind of slimy, right? Because they feel like, well, why would they want to hear from me constantly? What do I have to say? Like all of these little things like we get in our head, right? Like we just really kind of get in our head and they, I don't know what to say. I don't know, like if I shot their portrait once, like why would they want me to like come in? What could I possibly offer them, right? So I wanna kind of dig into a little bit of this, kind of debunk that because I think that that's obviously not true. And I'm sure you have your own take on that. But these people, whether you're creative, you're a photographer, whatever you are, you most likely have a roster of clients. And if not emailing them, these people have already expressed interest in you. They've probably even hired you before. So why do you think that we're so obsessed with finding new people instead of nurturing the relationships we've already created? Yeah, yeah. I think it's, you know, finding the new people, it's exciting. It's like, oh my gosh, look more people coming in. And it looks good and it feels good, right? But then at the end of the day, you're not really making the money from all this effort you're putting in into finding these new people. And what are you doing with the new people? Are you are you talking to them? Are you letting them know what it is that you do? Are you introducing yourself even? Exactly. So yeah, really just thinking about with the photographer specifically. I just I'm like speechless right now. Because it boggles my mind that people would think like, I've worked, you know, I've done this awesome photo session with someone I've delivered wonderful results. And they don't want to hear from me. Right? Like, what do you mean? And I think especially with this, like, quote unquote, sleazy or slimy, or, you know, like that uncomfortable side of email marketing if you feel that way. I think you feel that way about email marketing that's very salesy, right? And the thing is, is I don't think that email marketing is a sales channel. I mean, yes, obviously it should and could lead to sales, but email marketing is a nurture. It's a relationship building platform. It's a space for you to deliver value before you ask for anything from them, right? We want to give our customers or our clients something first before we're like, okay, now you give me your money so that we can work together. But with photographers, I mean, I know some people specialize specifically in one area, right? For example, high school, senior portraits. And you think, okay, well, after their senior year, why would they need me after that? I mean, you need photographers for so many different things. You need photographers for headshots. They're about to go out into the real world. They're about to, you know, get internships and start their LinkedIn profile. Like, they might need some headshots from you or they might start a business and they might need brand photos or, you know, some kind of like food photography or whatever it is. Like, there's so many. I mean, they're going to get probably going to get married, maybe someday, right? Like there's obviously everyone has their own specialties. And so you're like, I'm not a wedding photographer, right? Weddings to my high school senior. But just think about all the different things in their life that they're going to have to, you know, hopefully go to a photographer for, to get some really quality photos. And even for just for fun, like I like taking photos for I like it. Yeah. sometimes might be revealing a little about myself, but I like to like just book a photo shoot to be like, oh, look at those photos of me. I look so good. But there are so many different reasons to reach out to these people. And then thinking also about like, there's so much you can share as well in terms of posing, posing guides or, or how to make sure your wedding day is, you know, totally drama free when it comes to the photos or how to like really style your photos for a brand shoot or for any kind of business need or etc etc like what is lighting? I know that's a big question that I think I'm like I don't I don't know what lighting means someone explain it to me please. So you do have a lot of knowledge as well and I know a lot of especially service providers are so afraid to give a little taste of how they do things and give advice that they're like, I want you to pay me for this. I love giving free advice because if someone's going to get free advice from you and it works for them, wouldn't they only want to see what paid advice looks like? You know what I mean? If someone came to me and gave me a free social media tip. And I made $20,000 from that social media tip. Like, yeah, I would want to work with you because then who knows how much money I could make from that. And so really thinking about, I think I've strayed far from the original question, but I think No, but I love it. The point really is like, there's so much to explore when it comes to email marketing And non-slimy email marketing involves value. It involves education. It involves conversation. It involves listening to your customers, listening to your clients, and continuing to talk to them and not just letting it be this like, oh, you know, it's the holidays, like I have a bunch of discounts and they're like, okay, great for what? What am I going to use that for throughout the year? If you are throughout the year, educating them on, okay, like it's springtime. Springtime is really great for outdoor shoots or you know, whatever it is. Or like spring and fall are really great for business launches. So if you're launching a product and you want a new website or you want something like a marketing plan or whatever it is, like for the more, you know, creative service providers, there are just a lot of things that you can start to tease throughout the year that give people confidence when you're running a holiday sale or when you're providing some kind of promotion or big campaign or whatever it is that you're trying to do. Are you trying to launch a membership? Are you trying to launch this or that? All of the courses, workshops, whatever it is, there's a lot that you can be sharing with your potential clients, with your potential customers. And it doesn't have to be this like, you know, book a session and you'll get X dollars off all the time. That's not how it goes. It shouldn't be all the time. It should be, if anything, maybe, oh God, I don't wanna give like a totally specific number, but it should be a fraction of the year that you're talking about these things. It shouldn't be all the time throughout the year. And we can talk about content strategy and sales strategy and all that stuff. But I really do think that there's such a missed opportunity when people think, oh, I can't continue to talk to people because they have passed a certain age range or they have gone through a specific milestone and they won't need me for another milestone or whatever it is. It's like, it will. And I know you'll find different ways that you can continue to talk to them and keep them sort of in your, I like to call it your digital ecosystem. Like your social media, your email, your website, if you have a podcast, whatever it is. Yeah, now I agree and I always tell people like, cause there are some people, yeah, like you said, who are really specific to their niches, right? And like, they don't wanna shoot anything else. They're only shooting like, you know, if they're on just shooting high school seniors, for example, then they're thinking like, well, they may not need me for anything else. Okay, well, do they know other people in the world who might need that service too? Like if you are top of mind for them, right? Your name is gonna roll off their tongue a lot faster if you're top of mind. And also people just will unsubscribe if they don't feel like they need you anymore. And it's okay. People can just unsubscribe. It's not a big deal. I think that there's this conception, it's not just creatives. I think that a lot of people feel like, well, I became, especially with creatives though, I became an entrepreneur or a business owner because I was good at this thing. and now all of a sudden I have to market myself 24 seven. And you know, it's like, we're not talking about social media per se in this episode, but that's a big pain point too, is like, well, I have to now be the content creator and I have to be this or that, and now I've got an email market. But I really feel like email marketing is like, first of all, it should be a non-negotiable for like your business just in general, because people really like, especially if you're a service provider, most of the people on your roster, they've already bought from you or they've expressed interest. So you literally are just leaving them out there with nothing, you know, like you're not nurturing them, like you said. So let's talk a little bit about, because I do wanna come back to what you said in a little bit about the upcoming holidays, because I feel like that's a big thing that hangs over people's, on people's shoulders and they think about like, okay, well, I haven't really been marketing, what am I gonna say? That kind of stuff. I definitely want to address that and how we can better, like, you know, create a better runway for that and tease that out just a little bit. But I want to talk about, how do we know, first of all, you were saying like, there's a give and take. It's not just you talking at your audience in your email all the time, right? Okay, well, how do we know that they like what we're saying and how can we get them to interact with us over emails as well? That's a big thing to hear from people. I know this is going to sound like the most simple answer in the world, but most people don't think of it, ask them. Literally just ask your customers. They, more often than not, are dying to tell you what they're looking for. They love to yap about what it is they need, what problems they're going through. And you can take all of that and really craft content around it. You can use that to help maybe shape some of your packages a little bit better. Like, do not be afraid to just ask like, do you like this? Do you want to see more of this? Do you want to see something else? Like you can even put together like really simple Google form and have them submit a survey. It could be three to five quick questions, less than two minutes sort of situation. We don't want something that's super long and intensive, but just asking them and saying, hey, would you like to see more of A, B, C, or D? And then based on their feedback, you can almost even start to segment these people, right? I know segmenting is a little bit more of a 201 versus a 101 email marketing topic, but we do want to still start thinking about that sooner rather than later of like, how can I start to categorize these different subscribers so that, you know, maybe this audience is, you know, high school seniors, maybe this audience is a little bit more business oriented, maybe this audience needs maternity shoots or whatever it is. And so then you can kind of start to understand how to target these messages to these specific people. And also just thinking about like social, social media and email should work together. They should not be in their own individual silos and they should not be mutually exclusive. So you can use social media to, you know, for people to find you and then send them to your email list, but you can still send them back to social to like get in our DMs, let us know what you think, check out this reel, let us know in the comments, like encourage that conversation wherever you are. Reply to this newsletter, reply to this email, we want to hear from you, we want to know what it is you're looking for, what would be helpful for you, are there any questions that you have about working with me. And all of those things continue to build the trust and continue to help customers or clients feel like they can come to you with their questions, feel like they can come to you as a friend. And that kind of goes back to what we're talking about with dating is, and relationship building, is how would you build a relationship with a new friend, right? would you ghost them and not talk to them for months? And then all of a sudden around the holidays, be like, hey, how's it going? Do you want to come to my holiday party? And you're like, what? I forgot about you. I forgot about you. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. So think about how would I treat a new friend? Would I treat a new friend by asking for money right away? Right. Probably not. I would probably build a relationship, ask them about their family, ask them about their lives, get to know them a little bit better and then be like, oh, hey, you know, I have this really helpful thing. I notice you mentioned you're dealing with this current problem or like, you know, this service I think would really help you, would really solve a problem for you, save you some time, whatever it is. And so that is the kind of approach we want to come at with email marketing versus like, hey, give me money. Like I have this really cool bundle that I have not explained how it would benefit you at all, but like it's really, really cool. And I think you should buy it. You have to relate it back to them. You have to position them as this like main character because they are and at least in their own lives. And so you just want to be positioning yourself as I'm here to help you. I'm here to help solve a problem, save time, provide some kind of unique perspective that you haven't seen or heard before. And with that, that is how we start to build the community aspect and create those really, really loyal, what I like to call brand champions because they're going to shout your name from the rooftops. Like you said before, they hear their friend's nephew is looking for senior photography photos and they're like, I know just the person. She's amazing. She is, you know, helped me with XYZ and she's also helped all these other people. Let me send you some photos. And really, just showcase your work, if that makes sense. Like, I think a lot of people, they're like, okay, so what do I talk to them about? Other than buying my packages. And it's like, show them your work. What kind of style of photography do you like? Soft lighting, do you like, you know, more bold, contrasting colors and elements? like give them a little insight into who you are. Why did you start photography? Why did you start graphic designing? Why did you, why do you feel passionate? And maybe be honest, like you said earlier, I just realized I was good at this and then I had to monetize it. And but like people love honesty and transparency as well too, you know, or even, you know, showcasing like client stories. I had like a nightmare situation come up at a wedding or whatever it is. And here's how I dealt with it and here like the bride had a big red stain all over her dress and here's how we edited it or here's how we hit it or here's how we still helped her make her feel beautiful on her special day or whatever it is like people love a fail story as well of like I made this huge mistake and da da da da da like give people a little insight into who you are why you do what you do. What you're trying to help your clients feel, are you trying to help them feel beautiful? Are you trying to help them feel strong? Are you trying to help them feel accomplished? Tap into emotions, tap into stories, tap into client experiences. There's so much out there that you could talk about with your customers, your potential customers, your previous customers, you know, your potential future refers of other clients. Like, yeah, yeah, I could go on and on them on. But well, no, I think that it's true. And you really do like I feel like we just kind of get in our own heads about like, what could I possibly have to offer right outside of that. But it is true. Like people want to know, like kind of like those deeper meanings, reasons, like, and it is storytelling at the end of the day, how important and how important our nurture like welcome sequences in that right like so you know what what sort of like goes into a really good in your perspective a really good welcome sequence how long should it be like what what are we kind of trying to do specifically in that you know like if someone just signs up for your list. I mean, I always like to say if you're like, oh my gosh, you're about to tell me three emails I need to set up. I don't have the time and capacity for that. Just set up one. Please just set up one, one welcome email. Okay. If you're like, I can start there. I can do the one. And when I have energy and time and whatever, I'll come back to the other three later or the other two later. Great. Okay. I just want you to start with one. And the very first one that I want you you to start with is just to introduce yourself, right? Introduce yourself and let people know how you can help them. Again, you still, in everything you do, but especially in your welcome sequence, you want to position the customer, the client, as the hero of the story. They are the most important thing, okay? And you are a guide. You are a supporter in their journey. And so you kind of want to think about the content in that way. You want to think about the messaging in that way. So this is actually email number two, OK, in my three email like recommended very basic welcome sequence. Email number two, that if you're like, I don't have time to do all three, I can just do one. I want you to do email number two first. And I know that sounds kind of contradictory, but I'll explain why. So email number two is introduce yourself and then also make sure that you are telling a client story, sharing testimonials, sharing social proof, photos, videos, whatever it is behind the scenes so that people understand what it's like to work with you. People understand what their lives could look like if they do work with you, if they hire you, right? And again, tap into those emotions, tap into those. into those you can anonymize if you want to names and details and things like that but like share a real customer or client experience because people can feel into that authenticity they can tell when you're making up a story so like tap into something that's real and show them what their lives could look like with you working with you hiring you buying whatever it is that you're selling so that's email number two in like my my three email sequence the reason why I like to do a three email sequence is because I think when people start to hear like five, 10 email, they're like, Oh my God, what people want to hear from me that many times. And so let's just start with three. Okay. So if you're like, I do have the energy for three, this is what I would recommend you to do. The first email I want you to set up is right when people sign up, they get this email immediately and it should deliver your lead magnet. And for And for those of you that don't know what a lead magnet is, it is essentially, I kind of said this a little, teased it a little bit earlier. It's a free resource. It's some kind of like freebie, PDF, sign up incentive for people to give you their email to receive something that does one of these three things. It either saves them time, solves a problem that they're dealing with, or provides a unique perspective, usually your unique perspective on, you know, whatever it is that your product or service is, is industry wise. So a free resource and I want it to be a quick win. Okay. I don't want you to do like an 86 page ebook or anything or like a three hour workshop or webinar. Like I want it to be a quick win, one to three pages, like really, really simple. It could be a checklist. It can be a workbook. It can be, you know, um, oh gosh. a tutorial video, it could be anything just really, really simple. For my photographers, it can be a pre-photoshoot checklist or you know, whatever it is, those kinds of things. And then in that first email, deliver that lead magnet. Nice and simple. That's all you really need to do. In the second email, I explained a little earlier what to do, introduce yourself, share that client story. Again, position the reader as the hero, the main character, what are they dealing with? How can you help them? That's email number two. And I want that email to go out the very next day. I know a lot of people are like, oh my gosh, like I want to wait like three or four days. I want to wait a week. Like I don't want them to, you know, feel spammed or anything like that. But they literally just gave you their email and by giving you their email, they just consented to getting more information from you. they're asking you actually. They're like, I would like to learn more about what it is that you're you know offering. And I always ask, I always ask, you'll hear me say this a million times. Do you remember what you had for dinner last night? Do you remember what you had for dinner last week? Yeah. No, you don't remember what you had for dinner last week. I barely remember what I had for dinner last night. So I don't want you to wait too long because the longer you wait, the more people are, you know, if you don't hear from your Hinge date the very next day, you probably will be like, I'm going to move on to my next Hinge date and talk to them instead. You know, they're the ones responding to me. They're the ones communicating with me. Same principle here. Second email goes out the next day. Third email, I want to go out the day after that. And again, it's only three emails. So you don't have to feel like I currently have a 10 email sequence. Okay. So people are hearing from me for like two weeks. So it's, it's okay. And I promise you the people who will want to stay around who will actually give you their money will stay around Okay, so please don't be too nervous about like oh my god three emails in three days Like oh, no, I know I a lot of people I can I can already feel the resistance. Yeah of the audience But email number three I wanted to go out the very next day and I wanted to share some kind of resource some kind of like do you have? podcast episodes that you were you were guesting on that are really helpful that you share some of your tips. Are there blog posts? Are there social posts that do have done really well or really really popular? Direct people to, like I said before, keep them in your digital ecosystem. So how can they continue to talk to you? How can they continue to ask you questions? How can they continue to learn from you? Or whenever the time comes, if they're looking for this kind of shoot, this kind of shoot or, you know, this kind of website build or, you know, social media help or whatever it is that you provide. Then they're like, oh my gosh, I remember top of mind. Oh my gosh, you know, Janet, she, she does photography. She can help me, you know? And so that is what we're doing as we continue to nurture. And I just, just start with the one email. I know it It sounds like a lot. I know I just threw a lot at you. Start with the first email, go from there. It doesn't have to be perfect. It doesn't have to be like this beautifully designed, long, intricate, like, oh my God, this is the most Shakespearean dialogue or whatever. It can be really simple. And I always, always, always emphasize, no one has ever unsubscribed for an email being too short. Okay, so you can keep your emails really short if that's what you need to get it out. I want you to think about getting it done rather than it being perfect, rather than it being this whatever you expect email marketing to be. It doesn't have to be that way. It can be really simple. My favorite newsletter is one sentence long. One sentence long. I love it. I love getting it because it saves me time. I know exactly what it's asking me to do and it helps me. It always shares some kind of like really helpful resource that helps me through my week or whatever it So do not be afraid to keep it simple. Okay. And just start there. That's really good advice because I do feel like, you know, we just tend to over complicate things. I see it all the time. You get in your head and you're like, oh my gosh, they're going to need this. That no, keep it simple. I like the stick to one, you know, if you can't do the three, I agree. A minimum of three is, is ideal. And again, like, I hear a lot of people saying things like, well, I don't know what, like, I don't know what kind of like freebie to offer. So you just gave some people, you gave some really good examples of those as well, because I feel like we just, we just go too deep. It's like, no, nobody, nobody wants to read 25 pages of your freebie right now. Like, keep it simple. Do the quick win. Give them something immediate. Right? good. And also video, like video can be really good for that, especially as photographers or creative business owners. If you are literally like service providers and you, you know, visual artists, let's say, well, you can definitely sort of like create a quick little video that will show off some of that. And a lot of people are just, I feel like, you know, kind of trained now to watch video because like everything has just kind of gone that So you can test it as well, like see what works, right? Maybe you test a video for a little while and see how people are responding to it. Are they downloading it or as a PDF better? Like you don't know really, right? Until you got to test it. You got to like just do it. Yeah, yeah, you do. And that's what I mean by like your testing, even me, like I had a lead magnet that I thought was working and it just wasn't. And so I changed it. And even though I've changed it, I'm still testing it. I'm still seeing like if I added these gifts instead or if I structured it this way instead, like would more people enjoy it? Would more people convert from it? That kind of thing. So yeah, it should always be a living, breathing organism. Like it is going to change. It is going to evolve. Your version one is never gonna be your final version. So don't stress too much about it being like, oh my God, the most perfect resource the most perfect whatever. I remember I gave someone my email for something I literally could have just googled. You know what I mean? Like I could have just, it was a net worth calculator and you can literally just google a net worth calculator. There are millions of free ones, you know, on the internet. But the thing is, is she packaged it in this nice really, like I didn't have to go look for it anywhere. It was right there in front of me. All I had to do was give her my email and I did and I was just like okay that was really helpful actually because you already put all this information together for me I don't have to go out and search for it I also don't want you to start throwing a bunch of like lingo at people I know this isn't related as much to service providers but one of the biggest mistakes I saw with like a beauty brand that that I worked with once was they were their freebie was like what is retinol and I was like whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. That is too advanced for a lead magnet. A lead magnet needs to be like, how can skincare help you? You know what I mean? It's got to be like three ways to get glassy skin or whatever it is. That is a lot more approachable, because if someone hears a big term like, I don't know, aperture with photography, I'm like, Apple what? What are you talking? I have no idea what you mean. You don't want to make them think too hard, right? Like you're using a different part of your brain. And I talk about exactly. Yeah. And that's what I also mean by like, I want it to be a quick win. I want them to apply it easily and feel like, oh, my gosh, I got something out of that. And that all I had to do was give them my email. Imagine what giving them a hundred dollars would do or whatever it is. Right. Yeah. Yeah. So that's that's kind of what we're trying to try to start and foster here. OK, so keep it really simple. don't overthink it, get it done, get at least one out there, get something, get a freebie up. If you don't have, if you're listening to this and you do, you don't have a freebie of any kind and you don't really email your list. So like that's the, that's the one thing that we really want you to do right now. Like that, if that's all you can do, do that. Okay. Then I want to kind of like dig into what you were talking about a little bit before about, you know, we're about to hit, you know, the black Friday and it's all that running joke of like, oh my God, my inbox. Like you just feel like you're just assaulted constantly, right? Like during that season, because it is that's what happens. But I'm going to be really honest, like I get a lot of promotional emails because I sign up for a lot of stuff and I don't open all of them, but I am 100% still open some and buy from some, especially around the holidays, because I know I know the sales are in there, right? I know I'm kind of like, all right, let me see what they've got going on. So first of all, it is a little bit different because if we're talking to service providers as you know, without like a physical product, let's say, it is a little bit different. And I do work with a lot of creatives who have more like luxury sort of brands where like it does cost a lot to work with us. So it does feel a little weird to, first of all, you don't want to discount too much in general. And then it's kind of like, well, what am I, What can I, how can I, how can I kind of like continue to nurture them and get them to, let's say if you, you do want to sell something promotional for Black Friday or Cyber Monday, whatever it is. Um, do you have any tips for service providers specifically about leading into that? Because I know you said the first of all, you got to be nurturing them the whole time, right? Like that's kind of the whole point. How many times a month this is going I know, I know like in your world, it's gonna be a lot more than what, somebody's not emailing their list at all, right? How many times should they be like, is a monthly newsletter enough kind of thing? So my answer is, might have some other email marketers being like, no, no. But my answer is always going to be, do whatever it is that is gonna make sure you actually stay consistent. Okay? So if you're like, ideally, I would like you to be sending a weekly email, right? Service providers, I know feel like, oh my God, a weekly email for what? You know what I mean? Versus a physical product, it feels like it's a lot easier to talk about and sell. Thing is, you have a lot of insight to share and you have a lot of tips. And I'm sure so many nuggets in your brain that you think aren't nuggets because you're like, I deal with this every single day. What do you mean? So you have a lot to share And I know, I actually do think you could do a weekly email if you wanted to, but if you're like, I can't stick with that, I could do that for a month maybe. And then after that, I'm just gonna burn out and I'm not gonna look at it again because I'm gonna be so overwhelmed by keeping up with that kind of a cadence. Start with a monthly email. Just start with once a month. Once a month is like pretty doable. Take an hour to, you know, put it together, get it out. If you feel like I can be consistent about a month, I think I can ramp up to twice a month. You can always ramp up later, right? And then, you know, if you're like, I need to adjust and I maybe need to ramp down a little bit, you can do that. I don't want you to like wildly changing things all the time where you go from like weekly to once a month to twice a month to never to, you know, whatever. I do want you to establish some consistency. So I don't want you to increase until you know you can. Does that make sense? So start with monthly. And monthly is a great, because monthly is better than what? Nothing, okay? Which is what people are doing because they're like, I can't do weekly, so I might as well just not do it at all. And I'm like, no, that is the opposite of what you should do. You should do it once every two months, once a quarter. If that's what you know you can be consistent about, I would rather you do that than just once a year around the holiday season when you remember. I really do firmly believe, I promise you audience, I'm going to get to my holiday tips in just a second, but I do want to preface it by saying, I do really think that holiday prep for marketing happens in January. It happens throughout the year, throughout the year. Like I said before, are you going to all of a sudden, you know, bring a random person, a random Hinge date home to your family for the holidays? No, you have to get to know them first. You have to introduce them to your friends. You have to start to spend time with them before you feel comfortable bringing up anything holiday related with them, right? Yes. So with that, and the thing is people are like, oh my God, but like, okay, so I should just wait for January. No, no, no. No. The best day you can start is today, okay? Because today, whether you're listening to this in November, whether you're listening to this in February, whatever time of year, I want you to start right now. if you aren't already, because right now is going to give you the time until the next holiday season to start nurturing your audience, to start building that relationship. And if you are starting today, the best day to start was yesterday, but that's okay. Yesterday's gone. The next best day to start is literally today. I want you to get that one welcome email up if you haven't already. I want you to start thinking about what can I share with my audience? And we shared some ideas earlier and I'll give you some ideas specifically for holiday season in just a second. Really just start. If you're gonna take anything away from this episode, just do it, okay? This is not a Nike commercial. But like literally just go out there and send something imperfect because it's gonna prove to you that, oh my God, it wasn't that scary and it was fine. And yeah, maybe some people unsubscribe, but like I'm gonna create a new lead magnet and I'm gonna bring new more aligned people into the list. Unsubscribes, I love an unsubscribe, okay? Sorry, another tangent. Unsubscribes are beautiful. These are people who are literally leaving and saying, okay, I'm making room for someone who's better, who's actually gonna pay you, who's actually gonna work with you, who's gonna turn into a brand champion. So like, please, unless it's like an alarming, like 100% unsubscribe rate or something like that, Like, please do not be too concerned about unsubscribes. It is actually a really good thing that these people are leaving your list because you're just gonna be paying for someone who's never gonna like open your emails or give you money. Right? So anyway, on to actual holiday tips. You're like, finally. Holiday content for service providers. I think, yes, you can be a little more salesy around the holiday season. People do expect that. But I also want you to tease people to think about what they're gonna plan for next year, right? For example, if you're a photographer, are people thinking about graduation shoots in May or in April or I don't know the timing of those? But with that, you're thinking like, oh my God, that's only like six months away. Don't you wanna save on something? You can get like a little discount or whatever. Yes, we don't wanna like discount too much, but are there other things that you can bundle onto like getting a package, right? Maybe it's a holiday deal where you get this like beautiful photo shoot prep guide, or you get this like really wonderful bonus framed print or whatever it is. Like what's something you can add on to incentivize people to book now, right? To book something or to at least reserve something that they're thinking about in the future? Are they thinking about a wedding? Are they thinking about headshots? Are they thinking about brand photos? There are so many things that you can do as a quick like add-on for specifically the holidays or something you can bundle. Do you have, I don't know, a three, follow-up three session like body confidence consultation or whatever it is. What is it that you offer that you can just add on as a little bit of an incentive? It can be maybe a bundle of, I don't know, a little booklet or something. There's so many things that you can add on service-wise or physical product-wise that get people to say, oh my gosh, yes, I do actually need to get some, new website photos or whatever it is. And I wanna do that. I wanna think about that now. I wanna prioritize myself now. Also something that I really like, And I know some people might think, oh my God, like why would you do that? Because then they're gonna give money to other people and not to me. But again, email marketing is about being helpful. And one of the really helpful ways that you can help people in the holiday season is gift guides, right? And so like, what are you shopping for as a photographer or as a business owner or as a mom or whatever it is? You can share some of the things that you love because then people are gonna be like, that was actually really helpful, you know? And I wouldn't have thought to get these gifts for my friends or whatever it is if I hadn't gotten this email. So yeah, actually I'm gonna stay subscribed because maybe she's gonna send something next year, you know, around Mother's Day or whatever that's gonna be really helpful for me as well. So you can, and then you can also kind of support fellow local businesses, you can support fellow service providers with your gift guide as well, right? And maybe even thinking about collaborating with local businesses or collaborating with other service providers to provide some kind of like bonus bundle or whatever it is. There are actually so many ways that you can package things without thinking about like a discount necessarily. And then also like are there fun things you can do with like the 12 days of Christmas or whatever it is, right? Like 12 days of photography tips or graphic design, like how to design your own social media posts or like special PDFs, resources, 12 days of like audio, right? 12 days, like 12, like many audios of you just talking about like, here are some really helpful things that my clients have asked about before and just go through like the FAQs that a lot of clients have asked previously. Like those are all really helpful things. That's actually another thing for your lead magnet. If you're like, I don't know where to start, what do your customers ask you about the most? Can you create some kind of resource to help them with that specific question? So just starting there of like, can I create some kind of 12 days of something? It can be short videos, it could be short audios, it could be little infographics, it can be one-page PDFs. Like I know that's going to take a little more time. I know it's going to take a little more effort, but this is how we start to deliver value before we ask for more, before we asked for them to purchase gifts with you or to book a session with you for next year or to get on your calendar or whatever it is. So that is just ways to think about, again, how can we help people as they're thinking about their plans for the new year? Because this is usually the time people are like, oh, January, I want to get my fitness in order or I want to get my business together or I want to start my personal development. I want to get more steps in, whatever it is. What are the things that people are thinking about and how can you position your product or your service to address those things that they're thinking about in the new year? And then honestly, when it comes down to it, I've said it before, I'll say it again, give people a taste of the experience of working with you. Have a client story of like, oh, we did a holiday shoot, or we did a whatever in the new year. and it went really well or it went really terribly or whatever it is and like, here's how I pivoted. Here's how I made sure it was a good experience. Here's how I made sure my client walked away feeling like, oh my gosh, like I loved that. That was amazing and I really would like to do it again. Continue to sprinkle in those testimonials, those stories or give people a taste of like, what do you and your families like to do during the holiday season? Like, are there other traditions that you like to have? And how do you like to capture those traditions? And there's just a lot of things that you can do. I think I gave you hopefully some good ideas to start with and to noodle with. It doesn't have to be long. It doesn't have to be complicated. Keep it simple. Keep it short. And if it's only a few, it doesn't have to be like 12 emails. Like I said earlier, it can be like, you know, two or three. Are they thinking about hosting? What are some things that are helpful with hosting around the holiday season? What are some things that are helpful with dealing with families and stress and all of that stuff? What are people going through right now that you can address with your knowledge and your expertise? It's true. People do love a good gift guide. And you, when you extend, you can also partner with other local businesses too. You know what I mean? Like you said, maybe you kind of like are, you come up with like a boutique and a hairstylist or whatever it is, like there's like five or six of you and you sort of collaborate a little bit on something that actually will expand your audience even more. And it's like your own little, you know, mini summit or something that you're doing digitally. And it, those things really work because those people have trust built up in their list as well. Right. And that's, that's the ideas that you want to just sort of like share other people's audiences and also expand yours. But to do that, you really do need to be willing to give a little. And I think that that was one of the things I wanted to make sure we highlighted, because you've said it a couple times, is that when we guard all of our stuff, or our favorite locations, or whatever it is, you're not coming, first of all, you're not coming from an abundant mindset. You literally are closing all your energy off. If you wanna talk about it from an energetic standpoint, which I do a lot on this show. I haven't done that enough. I'm so sorry. Let's get into that. No, it's a big piece of it. It's like, well, I get where people are coming from. I do. You feel like it's proprietary, et cetera. But at the same time, you literally are closing yourself off energetically to your own expansion at that point. And I just, I'll die on that hill that you can give. I'll die there with you. Yes, you can give. And if anything, this is a giving time of year. Let's embrace that, right? And like you said, I think with that energetic side of things, you are opening up to expansion. You are opening up the possibilities for more opportunity to come in when you really offer a little bit of yourself as well. And this goes back to relationship building as well. People aren't going to trust you until you show a little bit of that vulnerability. You show that side of yourself as well. And then really thinking about like, people aren't gonna be able to do it the way you do it. They're not gonna be able to take photos the way you take photos. They're not gonna be able to edit. They're not gonna be able to design. They're not gonna be able to put a marketing strategy together. Whatever service that you provide, they're not gonna be able to do it the way you do it. So you giving them a little bit of insight into how to do it themselves is never going to compromise your services services because people are more likely than not going to try it, realize it's actually really hard to do and then be like, oh, let me come back because you were right. Like you're good at this. This is your expertise. I thought I could do it myself. It turned out into a team version of what I thought it was going to be. So let me come back and work with you. You know what I mean? Like, if anything, all of this is, is really just like, is, is just expanding into an embracing like, okay, I'm going to attract and align versus try to like force and push and tap into maybe more of that feminine energy. Yes. Yes. And that goes back to what you were saying as well about just in general, not being salesy. Right? Like it's not about that. It's about sharing. It's about creating the community, inviting people in and also giving a little bit of yourself. So thank you so much for all of this. This was a really awesome conversation. We went to a lot of different places, but I know that we covered like a lot of different basis for people. And the underlying message, like you said, you just take one thing away from this is that you just need to start. Just start and keep it simple. And where do you want to connect with people? You have a freebie for my audience as well that I think is going to help them even more develop all of this. So tell us a little bit about that too. Yeah, I'm super excited about this. I literally built it just a few weeks ago. And as a thank you so much for having me here and to share with your audience, I want you all to come take my email marketing dating styles quiz. This quiz is going to help you find out which dating style you are. I think honestly, I've been seeing the results and I think the most popular one is gonna be the ghoster. So if you feel like you're someone who was emailing and then kind of dropped off like you are not alone. I created these four dating styles because they're four of the most common things that I see with my clients. And I promise you, you're not the only one. And what I do is once you take the quiz and you get your result, I give you a beautiful personalized roadmap with steps, tangible steps that you can take today, this week to work on whatever it is that you need to work on. when it comes to reaching your customers and converting them. So yeah, definitely go take the quiz. Let me know what result you get. I'm here to help you. Okay. I want to, I want to help you. And if you want even more help, you can come join us in the Conversion Club. This is our membership where people, a lot of founders come who don't necessarily know where to start when it comes to email marketing, or they have kind of started, but they still have questions or they just need a little confidence to actually click the buttons and send those emails. So in the Conversion Club, every single month we go over one very foundational email marketing topic. So how to set up your welcome series, how to build your list, how to read your analytics, whatever it is. And using that, we have an implementation session where you can come and I will be there to answer your questions. I will be there to hold your hand. I will be there to review things, strategize with you, brainstorm with you. And so yeah, this is a great space for people who want a little bit more of a, not necessarily a DIY, but like a done with you. I'm doing this with you. I am supporting you through this process. So if you're looking for a little bit more of that, come join us in the Conversion Club. And yeah, let me know. My DMs are open. You can always ask me any questions. Please, if you need me to look at an email, I'm happy to take a look at it, like whatever it is that would be most helpful for you. And I know we didn't get much into the woo today, but I really come talk to me about the woo, especially when it comes to business. Yeah, I was going to ask you. Like what's your... Like I really, really want to have more of those dialogues with business owners about like how woo has helped... I mean it's helped me grow my business and I know it's helped a lot of your listeners grow their business as well. So yeah, again, my DMs are open, so... Awesome. Come talk to me. I will link all of that. I will link your Insta and everything. So you guys go connect with her and I'll put your link for the freebie below as well. Thank you again for being here. This is awesome. Thank you for having me. Okay. So if you are someone listening right now and you just realized after listening to this episode that you've been treating your email list like a bad Hinge date, that you've been inconsistent or you've ghosted people or maybe you only show up when you want them to buy something or when you feel desperate, right? And you're kind of wondering why nobody's really committing. I really hope that you take away that the one thing you can do right now is just send that email, right? Just do it. Let it be imperfect. Let it be short. Get started. Because if you just sit around and wait for things to happen, you're going to keep spinning in your head and you're going to make this a lot bigger than it needs to be. Okay. Just get started. And if you haven't done it at all, by the way, 100%, this is your sign to start emailing your list. These people have expressed interest in either wanting to work with you or they have worked with you. So you've got to keep that dialogue going. And she went over a lot of really good tips for you guys. So I hope you were taking notes and I hope that you guys get a lot from it. I want to hear from you as always. Let me know in the DMs what you think about this episode. I'm going to put everything below in the show notes for you, everything she mentioned. Go and take her quiz. The freebie is going to be linked below. And then I'm also going to put, she's offering you guys a $30 discount for her conversion club membership with the code TRUE. So I'm going to put that below for you as well with the link. And I hope you guys have a great rest of your week. Love you. Bye.